Travel is often considered a luxury spending when trying to achieve FIRE (Financial Independence Retire Early). However, when combined with slow travel and digital nomad lifestyle, travel could be beneficial towards the financials depending on where and how you travel. 

Eric from Nomad on FIRE shares how his journey to FIRE changed when he moved from a traditional work life to digital nomadism, and back to office life with the pandemic. We talk about things to think about when incorporating long term finance planning into a travel lifestyle, the importance of personal finance, as well as travel hacks to stretch your budget. 

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Is travel really an expensive activity? or can it actually be budget friendly?

In this episode, Mr NomadNumber from the NomadNumbers couple talks about their nomadic travel style and expenses. He shares the activities that they engage in when traveling and how slow travel can actually be cheaper than lifestyle cost back home by taking advantage of geo arbitrage. We discuss travel budgeting tips, financial considerations and lifestyle design to create a life of freedom.

Here is also a free budgeting tool created by NomadNumbers.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please give an introduction of yourself.

I grew up in France and moved to Silicon Valley in 2008. I worked there for about ten years, and that’s where I met Mrs. Nomad Numbers five years ago. After a long conversation, we decided to quit our jobs, leave our place in San Francisco to travel the world full time.

We have been on that journey since 2018, so it has been three years; as of July of 2021, we just crossed our three-year mark. Since then, we have been having a blast. We’ve not looked back; we’re not missing anything we’ve done before. It’s been an exciting journey; we have a lot to be grateful for.

What made you guys decide to quit your jobs and travel the world?

It started when we were dating. We both like to travel, and we both had early travel experiences. She went to Australia for three years and grew up in France. I was used to traveling each summer for four to six weeks a year. When I moved to the US, I was also trying to prioritize other travel. So travel was always part of our DNA. So as we were dating, we thought, let’s take a year off to travel the world and start saving money. But as we were looking into this, we stumbled upon two types of people traveling full time. So there are the digital nomads who are flexible in their work and can work from everywhere. And also, take advantage of the arbitrage by being in places where the cost of living is pretty low.

Then we start going into that new category of people calling themselves early retirees or following the Fire Movement, which stands for Financial Independence Retire Early. It was something we were curious about, so we started digging into the stories of those people. We looked at people like Mr. Money Mustache, the mighty scientist, and Millennial Revolutions, a young couple from Canada who quit their job in their 30s to travel. So we looked into those people and how they did it because they stopped working at an early age. I think Mister Money Mustache was in his early 30s. As we started digging into it, we realized that it’s not related to your income when you understand how much money you need to save for your retirement. It’s related to how much you’re saving.

Mr. Money Mustache has a pretty good post called The Shocking Math to Early Retirement, which says that the more money you save, the faster you can get to retirement, no matter how much income you’re making. If you can save more than 50% of your income, you should be able to reach that regular retirement age within 15 years or so. If you’re saving nothing, you still have to work until 70, 80, 90. If you’re saving rate is 1%, you will most likely never be able to retire. We looked at our saving rates, and we realized that we’d already been saving a lot. I think both of us had already saved 50%, which is not typical. I think the average saving rate is somewhere between five to 10%, especially in the US. Because of our backgrounds, we are both very good at not overspending and frugal in our spending. By the time we realized this and looked at the numbers, we had already accumulated enough to quit our jobs and use that money. Of course, you have to invest the money in specific vehicles to make things work. Now we don’t worry about our finances, we get to decide where we want to go and we have more time on our hands to do what we love.

How do you organize your spendings?

The more money people make, usually, the more that we spend, and it’s okay. I have nothing against career growth; I increased my salary by nearly tenfold from when I started in France to when I ended in the US. But it’s about what you do with your money and your priority when you spend that money. As long as you spend that money on something meaningful, I think you are good to go. Many people spend money on things they don’t really use, like upgrading their phone every year for 1000 bucks, just because everybody upgrades their iPhone every year—those types of spending. So looking at your spending is essential. When we started looking at FIRE, many people talked about managing to live an entire year on $1,000; they were frugal to the extreme. They lived on rice and beans, which is not the case for us. We get to go out to restaurants, and we get to do various activities.

How has your minimalist lifestyle been influenced by your travel?

I was renting my place in San Francisco, so that’s where we were working before. I’d been in the same place for ten years, since 2000. In 2018 is was limited to the size of my one-bedroom apartment, so we were limited to what we could accumulate. As we prepared for traveling, we realized we still had to downsize quite a bit; we needed to travel as lightweight as possible. So we had to sell quite a lot of stuff and stored a couple of boxes at a relative’s place, but that was pretty much it. We kept winter stuff we might want to use when we come back or going to colder countries, but since we prefer warm weather, we’ve never needed them. We also realized that it’s probably cheaper to buy it, use it for a month, and then donate it back if we need something. Things don’t last forever, so we embrace minimalism.

We read the book by Marie Kondo, The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying. Her concept is to make sure that everything you own you need to bring you joy. If you look at anything you own and it doesn’t bring you joy, you don’t need it in the first place. It is good to declutter; it brings you more joy and makes you happier because everything you have is sentimentally attached. Decluttering is good; I think everybody should do it. I think it’s a good exercise for people, so then they only focus on what matters.

Did you guys plan to achieve a certain state of financial stability before leaving?

There was a good question. We wanted to try to understand how those people can sustain it. So we went digging into the math behind how much people were saving and whether it would be safe over a more extended period. I think there was a study called the Trinity Study that is a couple of decades old. When we were looking into the portfolio of people who had invested their money into stocks and how many years ago the minimum withdrawal amount they could take each year from their portfolio to last over 30 years. They realized that 4% is a safe withdrawal rate. As long as you only take 4% of your portfolio, your portfolio can technically sustain you for 30 years; it has been proven it can be extended longer to 60 years. So we looked into that. You need to know how much you want to spend per year. So let’s say you want to spend 40,000 a year; that’s how much money you need to have an enjoyable life, then you do that 25 times. So 40 times 25 is going to be 1000; that’s 1 million. Suppose you invest that into the stock market; it has to be 50% into stocks and 50% in bonds. As long as you have that, technically, you will be able to extract 40,000 American dollars of that portfolio for the next 40 years or up to 60 years. So that’s the formula; we looked at what we felt was the amount of money we needed to travel. Surprisingly, you don’t need that much, and we’ve shown that it’s actually below that threshold, and basically, this is how we came up with the numbers. We did a lot of double-checking, talking to people to make sure it was solid. We’ve done that for the past three years; we went through the pandemic, the crash in the market, and everything was fine on our end. We feel comfortable about our decision.

What are the factors you take into consideration when you decide on your next destination?

To ensure that we are not going to be above the budget we have for the year; we closely track our spending. Without realizing we always seem to spend around 40,000 no matter what we do. So that seems to be our average budget. The thing is that for us there are so many places to go. There are costly places like California, New York, and London. If we wanted to stay in one of these places the entire year, we’d go over that 40,000 budget. That being said, because we take advantage of geo arbitrage and the fact that we can be anywhere, we can alternate being in a cost of living country and the US. By using geo arbitrage and traveling around the world, we can have excellent control of our budget. So there are times when we spend much more than we would generally spend, but we can always balance it out. So far, we have had no limitations; every time we wanted to go somewhere, we just went there and were able to enjoy it. We didn’t have to reduce our stay because that place was too expensive.

What are some of the top tips that you have for saving money while traveling or making your money stretch while you’re traveling?

I think the first is that you need to look at your spending, which we initially put most of our efforts into. Look at how you can reduce your big-spending, for us it is accommodation. Then it is food and then transports. When it comes to accommodation, we try to stay a minimum of four weeks in a place. We use Airbnb; you will be able to negotiate a better deal, a daily or weekly rate. We have usually got it down to at least 50%, and we share tips on negotiating with the host. We have a way to approach them and negotiate further, that’s helped us reduce our accommodation costs.

We like to go out, but we mostly eat at home because it’s part of our new lifestyle. It’s not like recovering for a year and then going back to what we used to do. We like going to restaurants and street food vendors. But we’re very focused on enjoying cooking at home plus it helps us know the seasonal ingredients and whatever is in the country. We get to discover new food and new produce. Mrs. Nomad Numbers and I are both into cooking, so we don’t mind. We appreciate having a kitchen in the place we booked, so we reduced our food budget by cooking at home. When people travel for a shorter period, they will tend to go out all the time.

The highest transportation costs for us are usually flight industrial transportation. So we use travel rewards, which many people in the US can tap into by opening credit cards. You get a lot of signup bonuses you can use to pay for a free flight. I think each year we only spend 1500 2000 on transportation. Even though the first two years we were traveling multiple, long flights across continents. That was probably $10,000 of flights, and because of the miles, we only pay for the fee and tax. We only have to pay when we do short flights within Southeast Asia with low-cost airlines. That’s why we have to pay a bit more, but there are huge savings there.

So those are some of the tips that we like to employ.

How is flexibility beneficial when traveling?

We can decide based on the seasonality of things. When we went to Aruba, we didn’t want high season. We went in shoulder season when the weather was still lovely, but things were relatively cheap, and instead of booking all-inclusive, we booked an Airbnb. We were able to negotiate as well as having more space and being in the less crowded places. We don’t like being too close to a lot of crowds. Sometimes Airbnb, which is away from the big hotels, is a good option for us. We like to DIY our sightseeing because we have the time to do everything we want. We rent cars and stop when we feel like it. We don’t have to worry about predefined schedules.

Do you choose tourist destinations depending on the travel season?

We made that mistakes because, in our second year, we went to Europe. We went to Spain and Portugal. We spent July and August in Porto and Lisbon, respectively, and we paid full price because it was during a season. I think we spent a lot in those places. I think we spent 1500 in each town when we would probably spend at least half of that price out of season. So we learn from that.

Do you splurge on any particular things on your travels?

We enjoy food, we both like cooking and every time we go to a country we want to sample the food. We’ve been to Penang, Malaysia, and the food there was impressive. We had loads of Nyonya food, Chinese and Malaysian food that mixed various flavors and rich cuisines. We ended up taking a cooking class with a private chef. It was a surprise for Mrs. Nomad Number I was I took her on that afternoon cooking experience, we met the chef at our hotel and went to a market to gather all of the local ingredients. Then we went to his condo overlooking the city with a nice open kitchen. We made three dishes together over the entire afternoon. It was such a cheap experience in the US it would probably cost maybe 1000 bucks for such an experience. Because most of the countries are way more affordable than the United States, we can splurge more. We didn’t spend a tonne; that experience was relative to our budget. That’s one experience. We like food, and we enjoy a monthly date night. So once a month we have an experience, sometimes we’ll surprise each other or going to a new restaurant or go to the park and prepare something nice. That’s where we’ll be splurging on the food. We also love the outdoors, so we will spend a lot of time hiking and being outside, but those things don’t cost too much.

Is cost of living a big factor when choosing destinations?

Yeah, that’s why we love Slow Travel. We were in Chiang Mai for almost six weeks; we rented it for 600 a month, on the higher end. It was our own condo with a kitchen, a pool, a gym, a lobby; everything was modern. But over a year, you can easily spend 10,000 in Thailand and live very comfortably. So I think that’s why we love geo arbitration and Slow Travel; we just get to expand so much. In Thailand, massages are inexpensive, it’s less than few dollars for an hour massage, and they are of excellent quality. So we don’t mind planning to spend more time in Southeast Asia, because there are just so many countries to explore. Then we get the advantage of tapping into the low cost of country living.

Tell us about your travels to Taiwan?

We didn’t know anything about Taiwan until we got there. We were in Bali, Indonesia, in March 2020 when the pandemic hit. Nobody was worried about it, but when we saw the news, we decided against staying in Bali because things didn’t seem very stable, and the nearest hospital was an hour and a half drive from our villa. We were worried that it was going to get overwhelmed. So we decided to look around at the neighboring countries that were doing well; in terms of cases. We looked at Taiwan, Malaysia, Singapore, and Australia, and we decided to take a chance with Taiwan. I don’t know anything about Taiwan, but the food is fantastic. It is one of the best street foods in Southeast Asia. For context, I’ve never been to Southeast Asia until 2019, even though I’ve been traveling a lot in America for the past ten years before we left. We did street food in a couple of countries we explored in 2019 and 2020, but Taiwan was by far some of Southeast Asia’s best street food and overall food. Taiwan is one of the safest places we’ve been, and we managed to get residency there. I think we will probably try to come back because it’s a perfect base for South Asia.

How does travel become different when you are a perpetual traveler versus a vacation traveler?

We don’t do the touristy things because it is too crowded and you don’t get the experience when you don’t have the time. If you are in a place for a few days or a week, you have limited time to see many things. But because we have the luxury of having as much time as we want in the location, we focus on the less touristy things. We find those places much more pristine and hidden. We sometimes do the touristy stuff, in Taiwan, we went to Taipei. We tend to focus on hiking, finding excellent viewpoints or beaches; we swim, meditate and read books. We have a nice morning routine. When we went to Penang, the food was so good that we tried as many restaurants as possible to explore the food.

The criteria vary on the location we want to visit. We go to places because we want to explore them; we don’t pick them as potentially long-term stays. When we find places we like, we consider coming back to them. So, for instance, in Portugal, we feel it could be a good base for Europe. We spent two months there in the summer of 2019 and would consider going there for a more extended period, maybe look more at the real estate.

What do you consider when choosing a travel destination?

Yeah, we look at real estate. Taiwan is the cheaper version of Japan. The people are friendly; it’s incredibly safe. We lost a GoPro, but someone found it and left it at the local police station. So really save the transportation they have you know, The trains are high speed and relatively affordable. They have local trains, which are super cheap. We can live in Taiwan for around 25,000 a year and live pretty well. So yes, we look at the pros and cons of each city, we pay attention to the environmental quality like air pollution, water pollution, and safety. We look at the country’s stability; some of our friends were in Malaysia during the pandemic and got kicked out after a few months because the government asked them to return to their own country, they couldn’t stay. We are looking at some of these criteria when evaluating it as a potential base in the future.

What are some of the challenges you have faced when traveling full time, and how do you overcome them?

Community is a big one and one that we’re still figuring out as we travel. Even though we travel slowly, we do move multiple times each year. We might meet people as we travel, but those people tend to stay in this location or move to different places. We try to go home at least once a year, so France for me and the US for Mrs. Normad Numbers so we get to see our friends there as well. But I think keeping in touch with those people or developing communities as we travel is one of the challenges.

The other challenge that we resolved was from a relationship standpoint, as we are together for 99% of the time. In the beginning, it was an adjustment because we got to do everything together most of the time. So being with the same person, in the same room for an extended period, is a little bit what people probably experienced with the pandemic. We’re pretty good at it now. We’re using monthly rituals to check in on things that are good or things we can improve. We tried to communicate as much as possible together, which has helped solve all of those issues and challenges. I think there is planning involved, so it’s time-consuming. We have to plan and look for accommodation with a pretty good kitchen and natural light whenever you move somewhere. So Taiwan was quite a challenge because many apartments don’t have natural light; many apartments have artificial light and blue light. We didn’t like that, so there was a lot of planning going on.

Do you find it challenging to meet the traveling community?

As we’re a couple, we don’t have to seek out that community at first. When we stay in places for just four weeks, we do everything together. But over time, you want to have a bit more space. Taiwan was good because we spent 18 months there. We went from four to six weeks in one location to a few months. That was very interesting because we were able to develop a community of friends. We have people now that we’re calling friends that we’ve been hanging out with. I signed up for a triathlon, and it was something I did for myself. I was training with ex-pats and locals that I met. Of course, I have the travel tools that we’ve been sharing on the blog, but I think it’s nice when you are in a location for a long time. You can invest yourself in the area and into new hobbies. That has been good, but because we love each other, we are not seeking community as much as you might if you’re traveling solo.

We usually don’t have a problem finding people because we go to meetups or use Facebook groups. We are creating a small community in every location, and when we return, maybe they will still be there. Taiwan will be a nice experiment because we plan to come back here more often due to the current residency permit.

How has the COVID situation affected your businesses and investments?

It was a good test for us. We got to our second year of full-time travel, and the market has gone up significantly since 2018. Most of our investments are in the stock market. We also started to diversify before we left into some real estate. COVID was really bad on so many financial levels. The stock market tanked. We had to consider what our budget for the rest of 2020 should be back in March. We had to do a two-week quarantine in Taiwan, which was mandatory, we had to stay inside our apartment, and we had a lot of time to think. Things were looking terrible, and we decided to reduce our spendings.

We set a budget we could stick to and focused on cooking more than going out because we wouldn’t be able to go out. I wrote about this on the blog; if your readers want more details about the mindset. We were surprised we didn’t have to sell anything; the investment stayed the same; we just kept monitoring it. We were amazed that the market recovered quickly because all losses were recovered by September or October. By the end of the year, I think our investment went above what they were before the crash. We weren’t in panic mode; we felt grateful that we had that money invested, and we could be anywhere in the world. We managed to be in a place with a tremendous cost of living to reduce our spending significantly. We spent a little less, and then we felt comfortable in spending. We had passive income coming from the market and from a dividend in renting for the real estate; those incomes kept coming in, so we were good on that front. Some of our friends went straight back home to the US, but we felt that, even in California, there were too many cases, and Taiwan had none. It turned out to be the best place we could have been.

Taiwan had no cases for the first 18 months; I think they had 1000 cases from March 2020 to March 2021 and all of those were imported cases of people coming back to Taiwan because the border was closed to foreigners. There were no locally transmitted cases for a year, and there were a couple of outbreaks. One significant outbreak in May affected the country; fortunately, that has been resolved, and things are reopening again. I think that brought the total number of cases since the beginning of the pandemic to 20,000 or 18,000, and maybe less than 1000 deaths. Those are really low numbers when you look at the worldwide numbers, and that’s why we’re planning on going back to Taiwan long term; it will be a safe place if there is a new variant and if the situation becomes complicated.

I forgot to mention that we also had a couple of years of spending in cash, which is why we felt pretty comfortable. We expected the crash to take two to four years to recover, which was the case in 2008. We chose cash instead of proceeding with our investments. That’s probably good advice if people are trying to get into the long travel journey and following investment practice; have an emergency fund, so you are not panicking.

We like to be conservative; if that situation happens again, we can reduce our budget. But technically, we’ll have time, and we can still spend the same amount of money for three years so that we feel good about it because two to three years give us plenty of time to adjust.

What are you working on, and how do you get motivated to work on all these things?

That’s a good question. I think many people are used to working, that’s what they do for their life. They go to work from Monday to Friday and then on weekends that’s their free time. There are a lot of things to do because we don’t have a house or kids. So what do we do with our time? We can explore, but after a while, it might be tedious. So we split our time. 50/50. 50% we explore new places we can learn more about. Then the other 50% will be our project or hobbies. So for myself, it has been blogging and spending time sharing what we’ve learned and showing people that it takes very little to travel. We are in Dubrovnik spending time building an app because my background is in software engineering; I’ve been running mobile developments. I’ve started launching an app to help people track their budget, as well. So working on the app and keeping our brains sharp, reading books, and taking Chinese classes.

A website that really started from a long distance relationship, travel enthusiasts Becca and Dan shares how their stories came together and gave birth to Half Half Travel. In this episode, we talk about the transition to remote work, maintaining relationships across the world and the business of blogging.

We explore solo vs couple travel, the mindset differences between tourists and nomads, as well as balancing work, blogging and travel. Don’t miss this episode as Becca and Dan shares their most important travel and remote work tips.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please give a brief introduction of you guys and website.

Becca: We met in New York during the winter of 2015. We talked about a budding love of travel between us. I had already spent time studying abroad in Hong Kong when I was in college. Then I took some time after university to work in Shanghai at a school. I spent two years in China traveling Asia, and then I came back to New York. I was working a corporate job when I met Dan. He said on our first date that he wanted to travel and work remotely for a year, which back then was a really new idea. I didn’t know anyone else who worked remotely, and people didn’t think it was possible.

Dan went on a program called Remote Year, which is for people who work remotely and can travel with a group of people working remotely. The program is run so that everybody is exploring the world together and taking time in international cities where they’re set up in coworking spaces to work remotely successfully. So Dan went to Morocco, Spain, Portugal, Serbia, England, Mexico, Peru, Argentina, Colombia, and somewhere in the Czech Republic.

Dan: I went to 12 cities and ten countries. Every four or five weeks, the whole group would travel from one city to another city, and it was an excellent way to focus on work. Some people used it as a perfect excuse to eat out at many local restaurants, meet locals, learn a new language, try new things and meet new friends. I got a lot of value in transitioning from working full-time to freelancing. It came at a perfect time because I could carve out some more time to work on Half Half Travel. It was only an Instagram at first, and we had three posts, six posts, nine posts, something pretty insignificant. I thought that our story was interesting, so I submitted it to a bunch of press outlets, and it got picked up. Then the Instagram gained a lot of followers pretty quickly. My background is in Web Development. I realized we’re getting all these press mentions, and we should have them linked to a website because I knew it would be valuable in the future. So very early on, before we even wrote any blog content, we had backlinks from some pretty major news outlets covering our story. I think it was pretty beneficial to our growth once we started writing content and growing the website. We started focusing primarily on the website in 2018.

Becca: We started this Instagram because we were long-distance dating. I was living and working in New York, and Dan was traveling the world for 12 months. I visited him every three months; we would go to Barcelona, Colombia, Lisbon, and Argentina. I stayed for two weeks, and we made these photos that were half what I was doing and half what he was doing; they’re match up perfectly. Half Half Half Traveled website said thanks for visiting us; here’s our Instagram. So you were getting to the website, but it was driving you back to Instagram. No one was talking about travel bloggers four years ago.

I took vacations traveling in Latin America and Asia, and I always wrote down what I did and share them with friends. Dan suggested putting these travel guides on our website, but I wanted to polish them and make them better. We went to Hong Kong in the summer of 2017. We went to all those photo spots like the Rainbow building that everyone has seen on Instagram because it’s so fun to look at. One of our first articles was about Hong Kong, and it was popular, so we learned how to do it better.

Dan, was your first trip to try remote working while traveling?

Dan: It’s interesting; I wanted to go on the travel and work program because I had some experience working remotely. The team I was on had a couple of remote engineers, so it was okay; remote working was something that I could do. I got the idea because I went on a trip, and the trip was cut short. It was a seven-day trip, and I was traveling in Colombia. I could have stayed longer if I could work in a hostel or a café. I talked to one of my co-workers, and she said one of her friends was on this program and to check it out. Remote Year is a pretty polished product now, but back in 2016, when I started, there wasn’t much. It was like a Squarespace landing page.

Becca: They had run one trip, and it was a startup. It still is a startup, but the company was so new that they had only run one successful trip and people had okay things to say about it.

Dan: I got inspired by that, and then I decided that in 2016 I was going to travel to one place on my own. In January, I went to Columbia, February I went to Austin, Texas, with a friend work from a cafe for a couple of days. Then I went to DC, and then I went to Utah; it was nice because you can be somewhere and work. You could work Monday through Thursday and take a day off in a superb location. You’re able to have a weekend trip that isn’t in your typical neighborhood. I got the feeling for it, and then I ended up getting into Remote Year. That was the kick-start to diving headfirst into remote work and travel.

Becca: In 2018, we both decided to sublet our apartment in Brooklyn. I quit my job and then got rehired to work remotely part-time, and Dan did the same thing. We went to Europe on a one-way ticket, planning to work remotely and travel with no plans. Because of some of the connections and opportunities that arose, we wound up doing Remote Year’s new four-month program as a couple from September to December in 2018. We did a mini Remote Year bite-size program in South America and Mexico, working remotely and traveling.

Did you find Remote Years valuable and necessary to jump into a remote work model?

Dan: I got a lot of value in it because, looking back, I didn’t have that much travel experience before going on the program. It’s not like I hadn’t left the country before, but I hadn’t had that much experience traveling. It wasn’t like I didn’t think I needed it, but things were very convenient. It worked out well because I was able to have some things set up ready to go. It ended up saving a lot of time.

Becca: I had a lot more travel experience, but I had much less remote work experience. By the time we took our trip, I was happy to arrange, plan flights, logistics, and reservations. The difference was I realized how much time I was spending making our itineraries, finding out logistics, doing research, making bookings, and negotiating Airbnb. Doing something like Remote Year costs money, but it saves you time doing all that legwork on your own. Then we also were able to travel with people who are doing the same thing more or less on the same schedule. It is an incredible networking opportunity to meet people from all over the world. They are very different from people you would meet in your close circle of friends at home. I think that has been one of the more eye-opening things in travel, meeting someone very different from you but sharing a common interest. Spending time with people in a travel community, you learn more about yourself and other people and professionalism.

Do you think the digital nomad mindset is different from that of other travelers?

Dan: It helps to travel with a group when you’re in places that don’t have a strong community of people working remotely and traveling. So in Mexico City, you’re pretty much guaranteed to find either ex-pats or people that are doing the same thing on their own. But suppose you’re in a place like Belgrade, Serbia, or even the Czech Republic. In that case, it’s sometimes harder to find that community. Having a group of people that you’re familiar with and connected with. I feel like everybody always gets along super easily. If you can’t find a community of people, it can sometimes get lonely in those more obscure cities.

Becca: Another thing interesting for us was that we traveled independently, working in our Airbnbs and some hostels in Europe. We went to Czech Republic, Portugal, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ireland. We were on our own; we didn’t have any community during that time. We didn’t meet any other nomads, and then we did Remote Year for four months. Then we went to Vietnam for a month and then to Taiwan for three weeks. We didn’t have the opportunity to have that community feeling because we were working US hours from East Asia. It’s a fantastic place to be; it’s beautiful, and the people are amazing, and the food is excellent. But in terms of having a community, it was a lot harder to find that entirely on our own. In Taiwan, we didn’t meet anyone because of that strange work schedule.

How did you find working from Taipei, Taiwan?

Becca: We wrote an article on our website called The Best Cafes in Taipei to Work At. We took all these notes about the cafe culture there. We found that the coffees are very expensive; the coffee itself came out to five US dollars. Because coffee was a commodity, they knew that you would sit there for four hours, and they were taxing you for that.

Dan: I think it was pretty affordable, but the first coffee was more expensive. You’re paying for your seat, I imagine.

What tips do you have for maintaining a long distance relationship and what are some challenges you faced?

Becca: I would say some of them were figuring out when we would see each other next, but we always knew that there would be a time when we would see each other. I think the hardest thing was not seeing each other for almost four months when Dan left for the first time. When they think about long-distance relationships, people don’t realize that you get to visit each other. When you visit, it’s so much fun. I still think our Portugal trip was one of our best trips ever. We were very excited to see each other and remember that our relationship was real. If people are in long-distance relationships, we suggest planning trips and getting excited about them. Never act like you’re never going to see each other because that’s not the point. The point is to have good visits and make special memories that you can use to keep you afloat and positive.

Dan: I think the thing that we always say about long-distance relationships is that for us, we talked more than couples speak when they’re in person. We spoke every day on the phone, and we texted almost all the time.

Becca: We were emailing all day long; we probably didn’t work for a year because we were just always talking.

Dan: I think we got to know each other more apart than we did when we were together in New York with everyday busy lives. The other thing is it made sense; I had something to look forward to when she would come to visit. It kept me grounded to have something versus wandering and traveling. It is valuable to plan trips together and then value the time you have together once you meet for a certain amount of time.

What are the pros and cons of couples’ travel compared to solo travel?

Dan: I only really did solo travel for two weeks, so I haven’t done much. I think traveling as a couple I can speak a lot to. The pros would be that you always have someone to travel with; you can split costs, so that was nice. You’re never really lonely, and you’ll probably have a better time, as long as you like the person you’re traveling with. I think the cons would be it’s easy not to meet other people and stay in your comfort zone. So it’s a lot harder to feel motivated to step outside of your comfort zone to try new things. Suppose that’s meeting new people, trying new experiences, or going to a restaurant; it is a lot harder if you’re traveling with someone else versus traveling solo. So the pros and cons of solo trips are you meet a lot of people when traveling solo. I always tried to find a travel companion.

In Iceland, I went alone, but I met some guy in a hostel and decided to drive around Iceland together. It was nice to appreciate some insights and talk about how cool it is or take some pictures together. The experience is much more valuable; I pushed myself to try new experiences because it’s pretty uncomfortable. I’m not a very social person on my own, so it takes a lot for me to go and do these things.

Becca: I think you did a great job traveling independently, and I’ve traveled alone in China, Costa Rica, Thailand, Japan, Hong Kong. I like that I have traveled alone. I don’t know if I would take a solo trip nowadays, but I’m happy that I traveled alone and threw myself into that in my early 20s. One of the biggest feelings you get from traveling alone is that I’ve written about this on our website. When you get something right or have success, you get all the pride, and you get to pat yourself on the back. That success and that victory are all yours. Those are small wins; when you travel alone is an extraordinary feeling. I think traveling as a couple, you can always be safe, and I’ve never felt unsafe. The fact that you’re not alone becomes the benefit of being with someone else.

How do you decide where to go or for how long? Are there days whereby you take a break from each other and do your own things?

Becca: We know couples who have been on big trips for a year. Then at some point, they decide to do their solo travel for two weeks. That’s cool and fine.

Dan: We’ve never done that. We do a very similar travel style and budgeting expectations. We both prefer to cook wherever we are; there are rare cases where it was cheaper to eat tacos and street foods than it was to make food in Mexico. I think Vietnam was similar where it ended up being more affordable to go out to eat most of the time; instead of buying groceries. The markets and grocery stores were farther away, and no one went there; it was more expensive. So we have very similar budget expectations and very similar travel styles. We’ll both suggest something and talk about it together.

Becca: It’s a shared thought process, and Dan lets me do the research. Then he lets me convince him that it’s a good idea. When we went to Myanmar in Fall 2019, we searched for flights, and we somehow found $540 round trip tickets from New York to Yangon. I feel like we’d never see this price again in our life. Dan asked if it was safe and fun, which it is. So we went to Myanmar for two weeks, and it was awesome. I feel terrible that they’re having some tough times, and I hope they recover. It’s a beautiful country.

Is Myanmar easy to work from remotely?

Becca: I remember trying to get an email, but my internet was too slow. I had to pull up my laptop a few times to do something for work. So I wouldn’t recommend it as a digital nomad destination, but neighboring Thailand is very popular.

Dan: Thailand is great for a beach trip or weekend trip or depending on your work type. If you’re lucky enough, and your work is through email or writing, it’s a good place. But we’ve had a lot of trouble in many places trying to upload photos, almost everywhere. When I got back to New York after traveling for a year, I was so thankful to upload all my pictures to some third-party backup because I was risking having one copy of my photos because I couldn’t upload a spare copy anywhere. So it depends on the type of work you do, but it’s possible.

Did you plan on seeking out remote work, or did the opportunity just arise?

Becca: We were both working in offices in New York, Manhattan; we happened to be working only seven blocks from each other, which is very close to each other. Dan was working for a contract client, and I was working full-time for a company. We decided that we were going to make the big remote digital nomad trip. We bought the flights and two weeks before we gave our notice. When I put in my notice to the company, they asked if they could keep me longer. When I said no because I had a flight to the Netherlands booked. Still, I suggested that I could work remotely for them, especially if you couldn’t find anyone to replace me. So within about five days, they sent me a new offer that was a part-time remote gig. Dan luckily wound up with the same type of thing. So we did have to try to get our jobs to be remote. Our goal was also to work on the website while we were away, so we were pretty busy.

Was your original plan to quit everything and focus on the website?

Dan: There’s more nuance to my side of the story. I wasn’t a full-time employee anywhere. I was contracting for a company, 35 hours a week. It was almost a full-time commitment in terms of a contract, but I wasn’t committed. It was pretty straightforward for me to work that contract remotely. Then in August 2018, the agreement wasn’t renewed because the company laid off all of its contractors. At that point, because that work was a significant part of my freelance portfolio, I didn’t have anything else to do. I had another client that was 10 hours a week. But I thought this would be an excellent time to start working on the website. So then we went on a Remote Year, and that’s when it kick-started.

Becca: During the second Remote Year experience as a couple, we worked for Remote. They asked us to do remote in exchange for creating digital content for their social media and video and photos for their content files and website. We got lucky with that. We were also writing for our website, which at the time we thought was good but looking back, we’re like, what were we thinking? We’ve learned a lot in three years with regards to our website.

Do you think that the Half Half Travel project was a cornerstone pillar in keeping you guys together while in a long-distance relationship?

Becca: I think our relationship would have worked regardless, based on our personalities and how we wanted to come out of long-distance still together. The time felt like it was moving faster because we were busy with the photos. Once we started getting the press attention, that made us feel even busier. It also motivated us to work on the project. It was this giant snowball of making us stronger as a couple brand. We started being Becca and Dan from Half Half Travel, even if we never intended it to be that way.

Dan: It was interesting because people have conversations when they start dating. I feel like you don’t get to have the type of conversations about creative input or decision-making for things that impact the two of you. We share an account on Instagram; we share a voice. If Becca said something that I feel didn’t work with my voice or what I wanted to say, we would talk about it. We had different and unique conversations that younger couples or couples earlier in the relationship might not have.

Becca: Pretty soon, it started becoming a business. It’s not because Instagram turns into a business; it’s more complicated than that. When I was visiting him in Argentina, I was literally on a layover in Jamaica. I got Wi-Fi at the airport lounge. We got an email to our Half Half Travel email from a magazine in France that wanted to buy one of our photos for usage in their magazine. We wound up selling one of our Half Half Travel photos to them, and then they sent us copies of their magazine in French two months later. That was a big moment for us; companies are finding us, and people value our work. It gave us a lot of ambition to keep doing it in some way.

What gave you the confidence to go all-in on the website and make it a full-time thing?

Becca: The decision to leave New York and travel coincided with us getting an email from a hotel in Portugal that invited us to stay with them, do a review on our website and take some photos. We said to each other, if we don’t have a way to accept these opportunities, we might start missing out on other things that come our way. So one of our first stops on our Europe trip was trying out this hotel, meeting the owners, and getting to know their story. They have a fantastic story, and they asked us about ours. We would never have made these relationships with companies worldwide if we sat here and did it all digitally from home. So travel turned out to be an essential aspect of getting the website on the road. We had to get out there and make the best of it. There’s a big difference in the content on our website from June 2018 versus a year later writing about Taiwan in March 2019. We just improved so much based on practice, research, and learning what worked.

Dan: When we started, I was way ahead of where we were in terms of growth because of my background. I already knew how things worked. I learned a lot about SEO and outreach marketing and all the stuff it takes to run a website, not only the technical aspects. I was always way ahead of where we were in terms of how other people perceive us. We get many inbound inquiries, and we have to say no to many things because we don’t have the capacity. There was an exciting trajectory of where we were and then how far we’ve come.

What advice do you have for anyone starting a blog?

Dan: If anyone wants to start a travel blog, start now, start tomorrow, don’t put it off. I feel like you can always learn and improve. One of the worst things you could do is say; I need to do this before I start. I need to take this course. I don’t know enough about that. Even writing in Google Docs and having ten blog posts in draft is much better than procrastinating and putting it off. So I’d say my number one advice is to start right now. Write an article, see how it goes, publish it, put it out in the world, share it on social media, see how people perceive it, and then continue. Our first posts are pretty terrible. We keep going back to our posts from 2018 to try to improve them, but we wouldn’t have those posts from three years ago if we didn’t start them. So start today.

Becca: My biggest tip is don’t be discouraged if some of your articles don’t perform at all. Our article about Hong Kong was number one or two on Google for a while; I don’t think it gives that ranking anymore. So stay positive; you never know when you might be number one, based on valuable advice you’re offering and how much traction your website gets. You might be surprised.

How do you manage remote work and travel at the same time?

Becca: We have not traveled much at all since the pandemic, but we just returned from a trip to California, where we worked remotely for two weeks. So that counts because we were not home and we were five hours away, which is farther than some countries. One important thing is your setup and Wi-Fi and ensuring that you pack correctly in terms of all the things you need to be successful. It’s something we talk about on our website quite a bit. But Dan and I both have preferences as to how we like to work. Dan took a laptop stand and an external keyboard for our trip, and I took my mouse, which I’m attached to. I have to have a mouse on a mouse pad to the side. We had to make sure we have headphones for meetings and avoid being in the same room simultaneously. I think people should go with a plan and expect some challenges.

Dan: The other thing is, wherever you are, if you could work remotely, you can probably pick up something if you forgot it. We picked up a mouse in a supermarket in Lima because Becca didn’t have one. So wherever you are, you can always get something. If something isn’t working for you, or you want to change your setup, there’s always the option to upgrade or find something that works. We’ve been working remotely for our jobs at home in our small apartment for the past year, so we’re used to it. But I think our website probably has a good history of things we’ve struggled with ourselves and decided to overcome and become more effective. What’s worked well for us is to over-communicate, so share calendars when we have meetings at the exact times and things like that.

Do you work specific hours, or are quite flexible?

Becca: We both have set hours with our companies, but they tend to be a little different. I’ll work from 930 to maybe 630. Sometimes we’ll work until 1030, but some days we’re done at seven.

Dan: It’s generally pretty flexible. Becca and I both work full time, and Half Half Travel is a side project. It is an essential distinction because our hours would be much more flexible if it were our full-time job, and our website would be much more significant. My working day generally starts at 1030 when I have a daily meeting. I’ll usually work till 530 or 630, but it’s typically flexible. I think what’s essential for me is that the company I’m at now has flexible expectations. As long as you’re getting your work done, it’s okay, but you should be online and available if somebody has a question. I think being a responsible remote employee is important. So for anyone traveling and doing it now, the worst thing you could probably do is work from a random country and then not be available. It’s essential to be responsible, and that is an excellent way to make sure you continue to have your job. It’s worked well for us.

Where do you find time to work on your website with all the other businesses?

Becca: We don’t watch TV. People ask us what we do at nighttime when we’re not working. We sit on the couch and build our website.

Dan: Yes, it’s better than TV. The three years we were writing cost us money; we didn’t start making money until 2019. So it’s something that we enjoyed doing; I think that’s important for any side project. We like taking photos, we like editing them, we like creating articles, we like sharing our experiences. We enjoy seeing that people got value out of it. That was the most rewarding thing for us, and then monetization came second. We also have another business. We do family photography in New York.

Becca: We only do a few jobs per year, but we do have another business.

Now that we work remotely, we can travel for longer and work remotely at the same time. In 2019, I had a contract that ended, and Dan took off from work, so we went away for two weeks. Actually, now that I think about it, I was working that whole time. Somehow I was working from Myanmar, which I don’t recommend; I guess it was slow. I don’t remember; I guess it wasn’t exciting. I was working at night now that I think of it, so not great at all.

Dan: In 2020 and 2021, for the first two months, we haven’t been traveling too much. It’s been a little challenging for us but for no real good reason.

Becca 

We worked remotely in the Dominican Republic in 2020, right before the pandemic when cases were low. We went upstate for a week to the mountain region of New York, near Canada. I remember working remotely in a chair in our hotel room. When you don’t have to be online for a nine to five, your options are a bit wider. Especially if you can do fewer hours a week or manage that expectation with your client or company. We haven’t traveled for a long time, but there is still a pandemic, so I think that’s why.

Is there a lot of work behind running a travel website?

Dan: I realized early on in 2016 when I traveled; I wanted to do this. I was ahead of the curve contacting people to see if they wanted to represent me. I knew the path, but I didn’t know the endpoint. I was trying to figure out my way, and I worked all the time. I worked lots of hours when I was traveling. I think I worked more than when we were stationary. It’s what kept me grounded and motivated. I would spend my weekends relaxing and enjoying places, and going out hiking. It’s a lot of work.

There are no ghostwriters for content and no editors. It’s just the 2 of us.

Becca: We don’t want people writing for us at this stage because our brand is us. For people who have a generic model that’s not about themselves, then, by all means, have people from any country with any name doing the writing and say it’s you. We talk from the heart, and when we give travel advice, we talk about our stories. I don’t think anyone could do that for us.

Dan: Some people have built up their blogs; then, they transition to hire a team and hire contributors. But for us, our website is us, so it feels weird to open it up to other people. We probably could make more with having that growth, but it’s not suitable for us. I think it’s such a personal backstory. Maybe in the future, but it’s not right now.

What’s your favorite travel destination and why?

Becca: I love Hong Kong; it is my number one. It is such an incredible blend of cultures with an urban and natural feeling to it. There’s always a beautiful backdrop to the buildings; it is ideal for spending some time.

Dan: I like the Czech Republic a lot. I feel like the culture is welcoming, although some people don’t feel like that. I’ve had genuine experiences in the Czech Republic. Also, it’s super green; I was able to make a couple of road trips there and spend a lot of time in the middle of the country and around some of the perimeters. It’s a beautiful place. I enjoyed a lot of it, and it’s super old. There’s a lot of history. I feel like it was one of my first experiences seeing some of those super old buildings from the 1600s and 1800s. You don’t see that in the United States. I think it’s pretty cool.

What’s your one best travel tip?

Dan: Mine is to take half of the stuff out of your bag, and that’s what you actually need to travel.

Becca: My tip is, don’t spend all of your budget on something that only lasts a few minutes. Make your budget last longer by staying in hostels, cooking meals, taking a train instead of a taxi, and then doing something cool with your leftover money.

What’s your top remote working tip?

Becca: I think mine is to be communicative and over-communicate meaning. For example, even when we were in California the other week, we were three hours behind New York time. There were many days when I thought I would miss the morning meeting, so I communicated that I plan to miss it, but I would update everyone with everything necessary, and there were no problems. If people can set reminders that they need to over-communicate something that might be assumed by either your team or your boss, then you can be successful at remote work.

Dan: Mine was going to be the same. I do have a smaller tip. If you use Google Calendar, enable multi-time zone settings. There’s a way to allow two time zones, so when we were in LA, I enabled West Coast and East Coast; it was beneficial. I always communicate in their time, and I always made meetings in their time. It’s also helpful to put the timezone time in the meeting.

Becca: I do that too. I make the title of the meeting, 9 am Eastern Time daily meeting. It’s super confusing, mainly because as you work more worldwide, the daylight savings time happens in Europe, usually two weeks earlier than in the US. So there’s a gap when you have to wait for the US to change their clocks, and you only really realize that if you’re working with people in England, France, or Spain.

What do you need to look out for when moving aboard and how does the expat life differ from the nomadic life?

Kirsten from Sand in My Curls shares about her journey of moving from United States to Malaysia. We talk about the ups and downs of expat life, the logistical side of things (i.e. housing, insurance etc) and tips for the transition. In this episode, we also discuss how living abroad is now more feasible than ever with remote work, as well as how the line between digital nomads and expats might start to blur as the similarities between the lifestyles gradually overlap.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please give a brief introduction of yourself.

Hi, I’m Kirsten Raccuia. I am an American girl from Chicago, but in 2013 my husband and I packed up and sold everything and moved to Penang, Malaysia. It’s been quite a fantastic ride. It didn’t go as we planned. We planned to be digital nomads and travel a lot more, but we came to Penang and fell in love with it; we got wrapped up in the lifestyle. We traveled around Southeast Asia, but we didn’t do the digital nomad thing; we rented a place and haven’t moved in eight years. It’s been a different kind of experience. I do a little bit of everything for work. When I came out here, I had sold my business, which was a clothing wholesale business. I came out here with an open idea of what am I going to do; I’m going to have to do something online. I started writing for a magazine; I was lucky enough to write for International Living about moving abroad, so I started writing for them. They sent me all over Southeast Asia to write stuff. I wrote books about Bali, Thailand, Vietnam, and Cambodia for them, which is fantastic. I was able to travel a tonne with them and then live here. It’s easy to travel. I’ve continued writing, and I write for myself on my blog. But I also write for other freelancers, and I’m a Pinterest manager. I do some Twitter work, and I’m an editor for websites. So I do a whole lot of things and wear a lot of hats. It keeps it exciting and keeps me tired.

Have you seen an increase in people considering remote working?

It’s huge. I think remote work has never been so normalized before. It used to be; you can’t live somewhere else and work in Texas; you have to live in Texas. Now it doesn’t matter. I think for anybody wanting to go remote working or being a digital nomad, this is your golden ticket, take it and run.

What was the driving factor for your move to Malaysia in 2013?

We were living the American rat race. We were working to pay the bills, working to pay taxes, not working to enjoy the finer things in life or enjoy life. It’s not a visual balance in America. I know many countries are like this, but I feel it more in America. It’s about having extra things. It’s about all the trappings of having this American lifestyle. We never wanted that. Mark and I worked hard, probably about 80 hours a week each, we never saw each other. I traveled for my work; he traveled for his work, but never together and never to nice or exotic places.

I went to Detroit and Minneapolis, which are very cool places, but I’m not taking a vacation in Detroit. So we never saw each other, and we don’t have children, we said, we don’t have to save up for college. We don’t have to do anything other than paying our bills and have a nice life, food, health, and a roof over our heads. Those are the things that we need to have, so let’s go somewhere else. We talked about that when we met in 2003. I had already lived overseas before. We’ve always said we don’t have to have this lifestyle, so we have it in the back of our minds. But nothing happened until 2013, when he pulled the trigger. We finally said, what are we doing? What are we doing this for? Why are we running ourselves crazy to have money in the bank and pay taxes? Our original plan was to go to Costa Rica. We went there for a decade, looking for our new home to start off and have a base. Then we came to Malaysia and fell in love, and three weeks later, we changed our entire life. We sold everything and came back six months later.

Why did you decide to look into Costa Rica? Is there a particular reason?

It’s a funny, random reason. When my husband and I went there for a honeymoon trip, he got off the plane and smelled the earth around him, and he said I think this is my home. I feel like this is home, and we hadn’t been there for 12 seconds. I have no idea why but he just felt connected to this place. He felt like he’d been here before; it’s a weird connection. We couldn’t figure it out, but we went back, and we fell in love with it. That’s how we kept going back to discover different places. When you can only go somewhere for two weeks, you don’t have much time to figure it out. So you go for two weeks and spend time in one town to see if this could be a place for you when you’re going to live somewhere, or stay there for an extended period, maybe as a base. We knew we wanted to leave America and make some other place our base, but we weren’t planning to stay in one place for eight years. So for us, we kept going back to Costa Rica to find which town would be the first place for us to start, and we just loved Costa Rica so much. But we never figured out where the connection came from, maybe past life; I don’t know. So I’m chalking it up to something bigger than we can understand.

Why did it take a decade for you to start your travels?

Well, Mark was ready in 2003; he was ready to go. I was not; I come from a tiny Jewish family. It’s was my grandma, my mom, my brother and me. I couldn’t get my head around leaving them. When I told my grandmother that I wanted to go, she told me, you should wait till I die, and then you can go. So that was a total guilt trip right there. But I just wasn’t ready emotionally to leave my family. I just couldn’t do it. As time went on, I was getting closer, but then Mark’s Mum passed away following a seven-year cancer battle. She told him not to wait for his dreams, and that was in 2012. It was shocking for us because she was not an older woman; she was in her 70s. So she wasn’t a spring chicken, but she wasn’t a woman who’s dying of old age; she had a lot of years left. She told us, you don’t have time, go. That shook us into thinking she’s right; what are we doing? What are we waiting for? There’s no reason to wait. Then my family freaked out because Costa Rica is only a five-hour flight versus Malaysia, which is across the world. It’s a huge difference.

What made you decide to choose Malaysia after spending a decade exploring Costa Rica?

I didn’t think it would have been anywhere in Malaysia, but we fell in love with Penang. We spent three weeks in Penang; we went to Georgetown. I just loved the old and modern infrastructure. It has all the things that you need to have a comfortable life from a western standpoint. It has international grocery stores and stuff like that, which make life easier for an expat. It has a vast expat group here, but it’s also easy to mix with the locals because Malaysians are special people. They are kind and loving and will give you the shirt off their back, and they want to feed you all the time. Penang is this perfect little bubble of an island. It’s not perfect by any means, but when you’re looking at it from the point of where I could live in the world, it’s got all the things you need to be comfortable. It has a great cost of living, and it’s a pretty magical place. So it hit us when we got here; we loved it. I love it.

If you’re a solo female traveler, this is an easy place to come and be safe. You should always be mindful and not wander the streets and three in the morning by yourself and go down dark alleys; that’s just stupid anywhere in the world. But this is a safe place for travelers. That’s why I think it’s part of a big backpacker route. It’s easy, inexpensive, and safe.

What factors do you consider when choosing travel destinations, especially when staying longer as an expat?

Everything that you said, but also healthcare, I think that’s important for us. I’m 47, and my husband’s 56. We’re both in excellent health and take care of ourselves. If you’re going to be somewhere for five months, or six months, especially riding a scooter around town living in Asia. If you lived in a lot of places, health care is critical. You can have travel insurance, but if you go to a hospital and can’t communicate, you can’t explain what’s going on; that’s a scary situation. We do think about health care. We think about the cost of living; it’s probably the number one for us. We need to make sure that everything works for us, so the cost of living has to be low. Health care has to be good. The food has to be good. I don’t want to live anywhere where I’m eating crappy food.

The people have to be kind and safe. I think just the lifestyle in general; I don’t want to be a pioneer. I want to make sure there’s already an established group of people doing what I’m doing there because I don’t want to have to be the one trying to figure all of it out. I don’t need to reinvent the wheel. I’d rather see this as a great place. Digital nomads come here because there are great co-working places; that means there’s good internet and everything we need as online workers.

How do you navigate health insurance? Are you on a fixed monthly plan?

in Malaysia, we have health insurance because we’re on a ten-year visa. The only way to stay in Malaysia for as long as we have is by getting a long-term visa; with that, you have to chose to have local health care. We have Malaysian healthcare for anything that happens to us in Malaysia; we’ve never used it because everything is so inexpensive here. We pay out of pocket when we go to the doctor because it’s like $12, something silly like that. But when we travel, we don’t usually get health care if we have health insurance or even travel insurance. If we’re traveling to Phuket for the week or anything like that, we won’t bother. Now that we are planning to come to America for a while, we have to get health insurance; we haven’t had it since we left. It’s too expensive to keep even with the Affordable Care Act.

Now we’re looking for insurance to get back to America, and we’re in the process of it right now. We’re looking at two different options; we’re looking at getting just a policy for the four or five months that we’ll be in America through a travel insurance company like IMG. Then a policy from SafetyWing for when we visit Cuba and Mexico. America triples that price on any travel insurance, so we’re looking at international insurance; some of them are stupid money. So it has to be affordable, or we won’t be able to do it; it’s just not possible. So there are global plans that will cover you worldwide. IMG is a pretty good one that will cover you for many places, including America, and it’s not outrageously expensive. But a lot of them, you have to pay cash upfront. So let’s say you’re in an accident; you have to put your credit card down and get reimbursed. If it’s in America, it could be $700,000 on your credit card; that’s not a possibility. There’s a lot of factors to figure out when going to America with longer-term insurance. Many insurance companies will give you three months in America at the most. We’re going to be there for four, so we have to figure out a bit of a different scenario. I’ll write a blog about it when we figure it out.

Is getting local insurance a more cost-effective way of obtaining health insurance?

If we were going to be somewhere long-term, yes, local insurance will always be cheaper. So the problem is a lot of places, you can’t necessarily get an annual plan. We’re looking for travel insurance from a Malaysian company to go to America; that way, we can be covered. If anything happens dramatically or drastically, they’ll repatriate us to Malaysia for health care which is fine because healthcare is fantastic here. In America, we would go bankrupt.

How important is travel insurance?

You want your travel insurance to cover you for the catastrophic stuff. You don’t need it if you have Bali belly, but you need it if you’re in the hospital or in an accident or something like that. You want your health insurance or your travel insurance to cover you for that. So when you are looking at travel insurance, make sure you don’t just get the cheapest one that will cover your baggage if it gets lost. Losing your bag sucks, but being covered for hospital treatment is much more important than losing your clothing. So when we look for travel insurance, we’re looking at coverage for catastrophic stuff. We don’t care about the little stuff. If you want baggage insurance, most of your credit cards will cover you for that. So check your credit card stuff. Chase Sapphire Card is pretty awesome, but it’s not available internationally.

What was your mindset when you got to Penang?

We didn’t have a real plan set out because we wanted to go with the flow and see what life brought us. We’d been living in America with a plan for years, and we wanted it to go and check out the world and see what came our way. So we didn’t say we’re doing three months here and three months there; we just went, let’s wing it and see what happens. I don’t necessarily suggest that, but it’s what we did. For a while, we had a medical tourism business here that kept us here for two years. We traveled whenever we could, and then we realized we didn’t want that kind of business. So we were open to ideas, but we knew that we wished to travel to be part of our life more than in America. Living in Penang, it’s easy to pop over to Singapore, Bali, anywhere in Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand; we can drive across the border and be in Thailand for lunch. So we knew that we could travel more here. And we did at the beginning, mainly because we only had three-month leases. So for the first year, we were on a tourist visa every three months, we were traveling, and we love that. So we wanted to make Penang our home base and use it as we did other things and traveled to other countries.

After having a business here, we realized we couldn’t travel because we were busy. So we decided to stop and figure out how to be completely remote and online. We just got stuck in here, and we just never left because life is easy here. So taking this time right now and going okay, we’re picking up and leaving is enormous for us because we’ve been here for so long, and we’re so settled; this is like our only home. We don’t have any other condo or apartment, and everything we own is here. So leaving here is a big emotional decision. I’ve cried a lot this week because we’re saying goodbye to friends that have been our family for the last eight years. But we will be back; we don’t know when. We’re not sure when we’re allowed to come back in due to COVID, it could be six months, it could be eight months, so again we have no plan. What’s the point of planning right now when countries are closing and opening all the time? The intention was never to stay somewhere for nine years or eight years.

Do you think that digital nomads and expats are becoming a very similar group of people?

Yes, now more than ever. When Mark and I moved here, I was 39. We had sold our businesses in America, and everyone questioned what we were doing. They thought we were crazy for wanted to leave. They thought the time to do it was when you’re young and out of college or before college or in college or when you’re retired. We’re the first people we knew who had left the country to go somewhere else, and we knew we weren’t planning to come back. We just wanted a new life somewhere else. It’s more common now, especially with COVID and people working remotely. People can be expat at 22. They can choose to work online as a social media manager from anywhere in the world. There are loads of options that we didn’t have eight years ago. Or maybe they were there, but we didn’t know about them.

The difference is that it’s becoming more commonplace and the norm to pack up and move and not stay within your country. I think that’s something that we didn’t see happening back then. There was no digital nomad; there was no such thing. People were doing it, but the digital nomad term was not around. So for us, we just got to go and see what happens. There’s a massive opportunity for people who don’t want to live the everyday life we’re supposed to live and do the things you’re expected to do. You have a little more freedom, and I think the world is changing in that respect. I think COVID has played a massive part in that.

Do governments prefer backpackers or digital nomads to boost their tourism economy?

They’re happy to have backpackers come and go. But they want somebody who’s going to stay for a few months with these digital nomad visas, benefit society, benefit the locals, and put money back into the economy. I think having these digital nomad visas is a fantastic way to draw people to different countries. There’s nothing wrong with traveling and backpacking. I did all those things, and I think it’s essential that everybody should do it. I think if you’re looking at something more long-term, it’s almost an evolution from being the traveler to the digital nomad to the expat.

Not in our case; we did it backward. But generally, when we get that travel bug, or you’re traveling around and loving life. If you have a job that allows you to do it online, you become a digital nomad. Then you find a place you want to stay and put down roots somewhere or places with multiple options for different residences. I think countries are opening their minds to having foreigners come in and get visas or a permanent residency like Mexico or Portugal. It’s about spending enough time there, spending money, and investing in the community. I’m so excited for people doing it because you can always go home and go back to your original country. If you live in another country, why not do it right and establish a residency so that when you are 80 years old, you have a choice where to live. Some are expensive to get, but some are easy to get by showing that you’re getting $2,000 a month from work. Then they’re open to having you come and stay for a while, which is pretty awesome.

What are some of the challenges that you have seen when trying to move or leave abroad?

I was pleasantly surprised with how easy life was here for us right at the beginning because it’s such an expat haven. I could put one question on the Facebook group, and 100 people would answer it. I don’t believe that exists everywhere. I think there’s a pretty unique group of expats here, from what I’ve learned. I’ve talked to many other expats, and I also do an expat interview series, and a lot of them are surprised at how easy it is here. It’s like you have a built-in group of friends, which makes life easier. There are always communication issues, but most people speak English. It’s one of the things that attracted us to Penang because we thought it would be easier not to have to worry about communicating.

We had to learn how to adjust our fast American speak; we had to slow things down. They would never tell us if they didn’t understand what we were saying, as Asias need to save face. They would be embarrassed. It’s because they don’t know what we’re asking for because we use many words. I think that’s probably the most challenging thing for us to get around, but now we’re used to it, and we just get it. It’s pretty endearing.

Have you observed many cultural differences as you travel?

I found different cultural things here, like Asians are very blunt, particularly when shopping for clothes; so shocking. Another thing that’s shocking for us is being asked how much you pay for rent. But that’s a normal thing here; everybody wants to know how much rent you pay.

How do you integrate into cultures, and what makes a home for you?

So as far as what my concept of home is, I think I will always think of Chicago as my home. I think it’s we’re brought up thinking you only have one home. But when you leave your original home and find another place that you love so much and settle in, you create a family because when you move to another country, you have no family, so you choose friends who become family. So they’re my chosen family. You have your chosen family, apartment, and things, and you make that home because you’re living there. It’s different when you’re somewhere for three months, but it becomes your home when you’re somewhere for eight years. When we sold everything out of America, we had a four-foot storage place with pictures and my grandma’s antiques and stuff that I couldn’t get rid of. But that’s all we have in America; you don’t have a place to live, we don’t have anything other than a storage unit and family. So I think home is where you make it. I know that’s cheesy, but home is a feeling for us now.

Every vacation we’ve ever taken has been, can we live in this place? What will it be like if we choose to live here? It is about exploring real estate, looking at the grocery stores, and the lifestyle. In a lot of places, I immediately know this is not a place I could live. There is no feeling of it. So I think for me, I’m going to have homes around the world, and it’s going to be where my heart is happiest. Chicago has always been my home, even though my heart hasn’t always been happy there. But I have good memories, and that is part of that will be my home forever, even in 20 years when I’m not living here.

When you go to a new place, do you subconsciously evaluate and analyze whether this particular city could potentially be a base?

I don’t think it’s subconscious; I believe we are very aware of it. I guess that could also come from working for International Living; my job was to find everything. When I was a correspondent for them, they sent me to Bali for a month, and I had to go and learn everything about Bali. I had to meet with expats, learn about real estate, go to the grocery stores, figure out the prices, cost of living, how much it costs to buy a car, things like that. That started in 2014, and I did that for quite a few years. Now I still write for them, but they don’t send me to do these things. I think part of that was ingrained in me; I’ve always had one foot in a suitcase ready to go somewhere else.

Not because I don’t love where I am, but because I have a little bit of a grass is always greener mindset. I’m that girl who’s in a happy bubble. What’s the next adventure? It’s a curse and a blessing, especially for my husband, who’s loves real estate. We look at apartments to figure the prices because we’re curious and want to see if a place is for us. There are certain places we have gone that didn’t feel like it could be home for us. So we didn’t go through and do everything that we usually would do, like go to the grocery stores and find out the pricing and all that stuff. But we do pretty much do that everywhere else, just for curiosity, but also for my blog and for expats who want to know more about our people or who are interested in being an expat.

What other countries have you considered living in?

All of them, so many of them. We’ve always loved Thailand, and we love the islands; there are many amazing things. We’ve always loved Phuket, and we are very intrigued about living in Thailand. I’m an ocean girl, so I want to live by the ocean. Penang oceans are pretty gross, so there’s no beach lifestyle here. The Andaman Sea is not very nice, it’s beautiful to look at, but it’s not like you want to go swimming in it. We thought about some of the islands in Thailand, specifically Phuket, because it’s less than an hour’s flight from here. Before COVID, we would check it out for a few days. We thought about whether we wanted to live on an island that was hard to get to the mainland or too expensive; even though they’re dirt cheap to live on, it is costly to get stuff sent to the islands.

Will you be spending time backpacking around Southeast Asia?

If we’re going to live in Asia, yes. But our thoughts at the minute are Mexico for part-time. I think through all this COVID stuff; I realized I don’t want to live in Penang for 12 months out of the year, so far away from my family, because it’s just too much. So ideally, I would live here for a part of the year and then go to the states for a couple of months and then travel to a new country every year for three to four months. That would be a beautiful life.

When do you know it’s time to leave?

I think that we’re leaving right now because the COVID situation is not great here and because we have been in lockdown for months. We’ve been in a severe lockdown for the last two whole months. We’re not allowed out of your house. We can go to the grocery store, the bank, the pharmacy. We’re pretty much not allowed to have a life. We can pick up and move because we are remote; we don’t have to be here. We are going home temporarily so we can spend time with family because our parents are getting older. Mark’s dad is 91, my mom’s 76; it’s been almost two and a half years since we’ve seen them. You don’t have a lot of time when people are 91; you have to take advantage of that. The timing is right to go home because we’re locked inside and have no life and because of the aging of our family. Usually, we would go home every year for two months, but we haven’t since 2019. So that is the impetus of us leaving at this point.

I also feel like I’m ready for something new. I feel like we’ve been here for a long time, and I feel like I need a challenge. I need some adventure. I need some craziness in my life because right now, it feels too easy to stay here. It’s very easy to say; it’s a much harder decision to pack up and go. I’m not going to lie; there’s a part of me that it’s like, oh shit, I’m doing this again. But we’re going to get to go to Mexico or Costa Rica, and there are huge possibilities, but then we’ll come back. I want it all, and I think I should be able to have it. If I want it, I’m planning on making it happen. But I think once you get settled and you cozy up into your place, and you realize how happy you are. It’s hard to leave. It’s way harder to leave than it is to stay.

What are the main tips that you have for people moving or living abroad? What are things to take note of?

It’s going to suck at times; it’s going to be challenging a lot. You may feel guilty leaving your family; I had a tough time. Even eight years later, I still have bouts of significant guilt for leaving; it can be emotional. You will go through times when it’s tough, especially if you have a close-knit family. You’re going to go through times when it’s incredible. You’re going to have a rollercoaster ride, be prepared and buckle up. When we got here, I cried because I couldn’t believe what we’d done and how I was going to do it.

Then you start finding things that make you happy, and you start settling in. But you will always second guess yourself so prepare for that emotionally. You need to be prepared that you’re going to miss many things, but you’re also going to have the best time of your life. I have amazing friends in Chicago, but when you move somewhere else and have no family, you connect with people on an intense level very quickly. When you find your people, they are your people for life. All my friends in Malaysia have moved away, and that’s another thing with expat life, people come and go; it’s a very temporary thing.

If you’re planning to be somewhere, know that you’re going to lose friends because they will move away during that time. It’s very emotional so prepare for the ups and the downs. Know that you’re going to have this balance of questioning yourself and then loving every second of it and having the best connections, the best time, and the best adventures. It’ll be challenging, but it’ll be worth it.

How do you cope with that doubt?

You just ride the wave, like you do during any other emotional time in your life. It’s not something that lasts for days on end, it’s an hour here or in the middle of cooking something, and the song comes on that reminds me of my best friend, and it makes me sad, or something reminds me of my grandmother who’s no longer on this earth. You have those moments, but they’re fleeting, and for me, they are not overwhelming. So I ride the wave and move on, knowing that tomorrow is another day and I always feel better. I know for some people, it’s a lot harder than that. I have a lot of people who reach out to me on my website. If you can find a way that works for you, whether it’s meditation, reading a book, taking a walk, or just getting out of the situation, find a routine that works for you. But know that it will not last; you will get over it. Even if you’re homesick or upset, you will get through it. It’s always the hardest at the beginning because you don’t know anything yet. You’re still trying to figure out where you’re at and what you’re doing. But those moments of what am I doing will get farther and fewer in between the guilt stuff. The guilt for me comes and goes. When I think about my mom being alone, it’s a massive factor of guilt for me. That’s still hitting me, but then I call her, and we talk, and then it’s fine. So that’s how I cope, by connecting what I’m feeling like crap. I reconnect with people. But it will pass, and you will get through it. You’re not alone because every expat or digital nomad has had those moments, but they’re fleeting.

Where can people find you to follow your adventures and the information you have collected for different cities?

My blog is Sand In My Curls, and my handles across Facebook and Instagram are the same. My blog is the best place.