Being a nomadic spirit since young, Trista Guertin always knew she wanted to work internationally. That landed her a job with the United Nations right out of school. The humanitarian work brought her to countries like Angola, Congo (DRC), Yemen, Iraq, Lebanon and more

Living abroad, adapting to cultures and changing environments come with its fair share of challenges. Trista speaks about her 30 years of experience living abroad and working with underprivileged communities. 

We also discuss how living an alternative lifestyle can sometimes lead to doubts and some ways to manage your thoughts. Trista shares how life coaching helped her through tough times and why she is a life coach today helping expat women cope with life abroad. 

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please give a brief introduction of yourself.

My name is Trista Guertin. I am Canadian. I am currently working in Lebanon, and I’ve been here for five years.  I’ve been traveling and working for 30 years as a humanitarian aid worker— with the UN and international NGOs. I’ve traveled to over 70 countries during that time. As I continue my humanitarian assistance work, I have recently been certified as a life coach. I’ve started a business as a life coach and mentor for ex-pat women living and working overseas, looking at their experiences and having fun along the way.

Can you tell us more about your past?

It all started when I was pretty young. My father was a high school English teacher and would organize trips for his students during the March Break. He and my mom would go off and mainly traveled to Europe. My mom had a globe, and she would stick a little pin to help them decide where they would go. They would bring us back all these beautiful dolls and treats, so that piqued my interest. When I was 16, my dad took me on my first school trip to France, and we went to Paris. We visited the Loire Valley, and I thought it was the most beautiful thing on earth. At the age of 16, I thought I never wanted to go home.

I decided to take a year off before I went to university and start traveling by myself. I went over for three months. I think I visited 14 countries before coming home and saving for a ticket to Australia. I was able to get a work visa for Australia and went there for a year. I’ve just kept coming and going home periodically. I’ve probably spent a few years back here; I came back and did my bachelor’s degree. Then I went to South Korea and taught English. I went to Central America and did some volunteer work, but then I did my master’s degree. Since 2003, I’d been working regularly out the country, but I returned for a year and a half and worked in Toronto. I specifically went after a career in international studies and humanitarian aid because I wanted to experience travel and live overseas. At the same time, I had an interest in international studies and politics. I wanted a career where I contributed and to help in the humanitarian aid world. It was such a great combo, so I’ve just continued ever since.

Do you feel that traveling the world doesn’t feel as magical as an adult compared to traveling as a child?

I guess. I’m from a smaller city in Canada, and for me, at 16, I always wanted to get out. Going to Paris of all places and seeing all these beautiful things was so magical. I am still impressed when I visit certain areas and sites like the Taj Mahal and Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. Things still take my breath away and will make me cry. So, I think there’s still quite a bit of magic in it for me, and it’s fantastic. I want to keep going.

How does your conventional and unconventional lifestyle intertwine?

Going to university and getting my degrees was always something that I planned on doing. Both my parents went to university and got their degrees, and to me, it was part of growing up; it was always something that I was going to do. There wasn’t much pressure with it or necessarily an expectation, but I probably never really questioned it. I wasn’t in a hurry. I planned on taking one year off between high school and university and instead took three. Then again, I took another three years between my bachelor’s degree and my master’s degree. I don’t know whether I had a specific plan or whether it just unfolded like that. I just felt like there was no rush to carry out some of the more conventional lifestyle choices. I knew I had plenty of time. I would have fun along the way, and the pull towards travel was just too great. I wanted to get out there.

Was the job at the UN your first official full-time job, or did you do something before there?

Yes, it would have been my first official job because I did some internships before that and teaching English while traveling and those sorts of things. It was once I had finished my master’s degree. I did that for a couple of years. Then I did some work with international non-government organizations as well.

Were there concerns from your parents or yourself when you had to relocate to a developing country?

It was a big adventure for sure. My parents are always concerned, no matter where I am or what I’m doing; they’re always concerned to this day. I wasn’t sure what to expect. It was 2003, so the civil war in Angola had ended the year before, and I went to Mozambique. I think I landed at the airport, got bitten by a mosquito and came down with malaria within a couple of days later, and got very sick. Then they flew me to my posting, which was close to the border of the Congo, in DRC. We were about 10 kilometers from there. We landed in basically a ghost town. It was one of these Portuguese colonial towns set up and then subsequently abandoned when the Civil War started in the 70s.

We were one of the few people there; all the buildings had windows, doors, and roofs were blown off; they had rehabilitated a building for us. There were a few cars in the village, and we had to fly all of our food in. We had no running water or electricity; we had to use a generator and water barrels of water from the river. We had a satellite phone for communication; nothing else. It was a massive adjustment landing there. We had some other international staff and some Angolan staff. It was my first experience working in a developing country, learning the ropes, and fitting in under very challenging physical conditions. It was a great experience. When I look back on it now, I’m so glad that I did it. I don’t know if I could ever do it again; it was very stressful but amazing.

Do you feel drawn to the more rural terrains?

There are so many beautiful places to go. I look at the postings and consider where I would like to try living. It’s such a unique opportunity because you do get up spending vast amounts of time in places that most people will never go. My mother would say they didn’t want to go there. I get to meet amazing, interesting, talented people and be part of something special, assisting those who genuinely do need it. My work has mainly been with refugees or displaced persons and the difficulties, hardships, and challenges that these people faced daily. They’ve been uprooted from their homes; they’ve lost their livelihoods, their homes, and family members. So, I’m very grateful to be able to make a small contribution in helping them. It’s very special to me, and I love my day-to-day job. Right now, I’m an area manager working with a large team in Lebanon. It’s very hands-on and busy. I love working with the teams and helping and guiding them, and creating something tangible for the Syrians, Palestinians, and Lebanese communities that we’re part of.

Can you give us an idea of what happens on the ground and things you have done, or life-changing moments you have experienced working in these places?

Going back to my experience in Angola, we organized the repatriation of Angolan refugees living in the Congo. Many people were born in the Congo, had Angolan parents born over there, and lived in camps close to the border. So, we started organizing these repatriation convoys to start bringing people home. We set up a reception center and provided them with some non-food items, like buckets, tents, whatever they might need to start setting up a new life back in Angola. It was a compelling experience seeing these people who had been away from home for two decades, being able to come home and set up. It was very emotional for them and to witness and be part of that was unique. Subsequently, working in Yemen, Iraq, and Lebanon, assisting people who, again, have lost everything. That can include providing legal assistance, ensuring that people have birth certificates, marriage certificates, legal residency papers for when they can eventually return home. We provide housing assistance, making sure that the Syrian refugees have affordable housing. We work with some of the Lebanese owners to ensure that they have a certain level of accommodation. We give them money to bring the housing up to a certain standard, and then they provide free rent to the Syrian families for a year or more. We also do some education work. It’s non-formal, but we provide support to Syrian children to enter the Lebanese school system. We offer homework support, tutoring, basic numeracy, and literacy help to make sure they stay in school. Then we help with protection work and emergency cash if their home has burnt down or they’ve been evicted. It’s a safety net to make sure that people have a certain standard of living and that they’re safe.

How have your travels changed your perspective of life?

It does have a massive impact on me personally. I do realize how lucky I am.  I think if you ask anybody in Canada, on some level, we’re pretty fortunate. To get to know people, on the ground, on a personal level, we do field visits. I don’t work every day in the fields; I have different teams. I go around and meet these people and see what they’ve lost, how they’ve managed, and how they’re surviving. It is challenging, but it’s also very inspiring because you see that people are very resilient. You see how kind and compassionate they are; people take care of each other, they’re very grateful.  I think it has made me very thankful for everything. It inspires me to continue to do the work, and that’s what I try and make sure our teams are serving the beneficiaries as best as they can. We make sure that you all of the precious resources are maximized through donor funding or private sector funding. We make sure that we’re doing everything we can to help where we can.

Do you have reverse culture shock when you return to city life?

It was more pronounced when I first started. When I was in Angola and some of the other more remote places, the differences are much more pronounced. I remember going shopping and being overwhelmed with the selection and all the different varieties. I was standing there trying to decide which of the 55 brands to purchase. We have a culture here and in North America that we buy vast amounts of items in large quantities. When you’ve been born and raised like that, it isn’t easy to let some of that go and live more simply; I do try, and I am conscious of that. People wear the same thing every day, and everything is well worn and well used, so I am very aware of that, but it is somewhat challenging to let go.

How do you find the difference between traveling for leisure and traveling to give aid in developing countries?

I’m not sure, to be honest. You’re undoubtedly conscious of the differences, and I guess it doesn’t matter whether I come home or I travel in Europe and whatnot. You’re aware of how lucky we are and the abundance of resources and services available to us.

Tell us about your move into life coaching and what drove your decision to do that?

I came across life coaching a few years ago. I started listening to the Life Coach School podcast by Brooke Castillo; she’s based in the States. I was having a relationship issue at the time and listened to one of her episodes. It was one of those instant aha moments. It really did change my life. I subsequently listened to all of her podcast episodes, and she has a self-coaching scholars’ program. It is a monthly subscription where you can access more classes and materials, go more in-depth, and get some coaching yourself. It had such a positive impact on me and my life that I made several changes. Mostly, it was a lot of internal work. I was managing my emotions, mindset, setting new goals, taking action, and it resonated with me. I found it a very positive force in my life, then COVID hit. I landed up having all this time on my hands that I hadn’t had before. The Life Coach School offered a life coach certification and was a six-month program. It was something that I had looked at previously and consider when I was transiting out of my current career, maybe ten years down the road. With COVID, I realized I had time, so why not enroll. I started in late September last year, and then I was certified in April of this year. I just really enjoyed it, and I learned so much. It’s very applicable for myself and my life. I liked the idea of sharing that with other women. I suddenly decided that I would start my own business with my niece working with fellow ex-pat women who find themselves in the same position that I did. It is an unconventional lifestyle choice, particularly with humanitarian aid, it does present some challenges. I struggled for a long time because I had this calling to live and work overseas, but at the same time, I was just never entirely sure that I was doing the right thing. Or whether I wasn’t missing out on things back at home because my friends started getting married, buying houses, and having children. I question for many years whether I shouldn’t be doing the same thing. Plus, there are day-to-day frustrations and challenges that you face as an ex-pat living and working overseas. So, I thought I would try and support women in the same position to overcome and grow past some of those challenges if possible.

How do you cope with family and friends feeling that you are missing out on things back home?

For me, it was about understanding where I was giving my power away and understanding how I think about my circumstances will affect the way I’m feeling. Therefore, my feelings will drive my actions, and my actions will drive my results. So basically, what we say is all the circumstances are neutral, and it’s the way you think about it. You can choose to think whatever you want. It takes practice and conscious effort, but if you want to decide that you want to do something or create a result in your life, you start consciously choosing the thoughts you want to generate that feeling. You’ll take action, and therefore create the result. So, if you don’t want to have those doubts, you can consciously choose thoughts that will start to move you away from the doubts and create more confidence and more certainty. Instead of worrying if something is a good idea or whether you can be happy living and working overseas, you can then start transitioning and thinking thoughts. You practice those thoughts until you believe them, and they create that certainty in you.

Then you can transition to; I am happy with this lifestyle. It’s a process, but it’s finding out what you are thinking currently and what you would like to think and believe. A belief is just a thought you keep on thinking. So, with coaching, we start with where you are right now? What do you think about your circumstance? What do you feel about it? What would you like to think? How would you like to feel about it? Then practicing creating those thoughts to get you there.

How do you manage negative thoughts?

I don’t think I would try and suppress negative thoughts or thoughts you don’t want to think because what you resist will persist. We have a primitive part of our brain that will default to the negative for most people, and the brain wants to keep you safe. It wants to keep things the same, doesn’t like change and likes to be efficient. So, these thoughts probably will continue to pop up from time to time. But if you’re aware of them, you can say no, thank you, and consciously choose another way to think. I think that’s the way our brains work. The more you practice it, the more you’re aware of it, the easier it will become to change. The important thing is that you’re moving towards the result you want and the thoughts you want. You want to bridge those thoughts and take them step-by-step because you want to believe in them. If you’re taking too much of a leap, you won’t believe it, but if you can break it down, you can work your way incrementally to those places.

How do you identify what a desire versus fear of uncertainty is?

I think working with a coach and having those conversations is basically what a coach is there for. Ask those questions and have that conversation; a coach will be objective. I’m not invested in the outcome. So, helping to sift through some of those thoughts, asking those questions, looking for those answers can be very helpful to figure out what you’re thinking and feeling and what you want. I always recommend journaling; writing down their thoughts can be very helpful; put things down on paper, don’t censor yourself, write things down and see what’s there. It can be an interesting exercise that reveals what you’re thinking and why it is a process. I think it’s essential that you realize there’s no right or wrong answer.

You can choose one option and change it later on. You maybe commit to something for six months, and then you can reassess and reevaluate. How am I feeling? Do I want to make the same decision and continue with this? Or do I want to change it? It doesn’t have to be all or nothing, and it doesn’t have to be forever, but make a decision and go with it. Don’t make it about right or wrong; you don’t want to get in that cycle of indecision and worry. I think it’s figuring it out as you go along and making sure that you have that confidence to figure it out.

What are some of the common challenges that you have heard from your clients?

I’ve worked with women in all sorts of different phases. I can help women thinking about moving and working overseas and are a little apprehensive and unsure about their decision. Then once you’ve made that decision and entered the transition period, there’s a lot to do. There’s a lot of uncertainty and goodbyes, so managing that transition and preparing for the departure. There are many opportunities to help support and get your mindset right and ready for whatever you face overseas. You are in a new country and trying to keep everything going is a very intense period. So, helping people to focus and stay calm during that period is helpful.

Even after that, there are challenges and questions about whether you’re doing the right thing and whether you should stay. I see many people thinking that changing the country will help them feel better and happy over there. One of the things I like to work on with people is you don’t have to move somewhere to feel better, happier, calmer, or more fulfilled. It is something you can attain, no matter where you are, and if you want to move, then great. If you’re looking for all of these answers externally, you’re never going to find it. It has to come internally first and then look for changes. I’m all for the traveling, but I’m not looking to be happier over there; I’m doing it for fun. I’m doing it for growth. I’m doing it for the experience. But internally, I’m taking care of my feelings and my emotions, fears, and anxieties. I’m not looking externally to solve that.

Immersing yourself in other local cultures can not only provide artistic inspirations and also another perspective at life, without all the hustle in fast paced societies. It also provides an opportunity to see things on the ground that might seem far fetched from home. 

Chris and Jill from Artistic Voyages share how they decluttered their life and hearts to embark on a journey of discovery.  We speak about how travelers can not just appreciate cultures but also impact local communities.

We dive deeper into how a mural painting project evolved into an ongoing effort to help a starving village in Uganda .

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please tell us a bit about your background.

Jill – I grew up in Canmore, in the Rocky Mountains of Canada. I moved down to the west coast of Canada in 2006, where I lived until 2017. I have an extensive background and different careers every three years. I’ve always been an entrepreneur, reinventing myself, creating new businesses, trying new things, and experimenting. I can’t say I have one single career.

Chris – I’m from Saskatchewan, which is in the middle of Canada. I’ve been an artist my whole life. I remember drawing from a very young age, and eventually, I got into tattoos. It led me to travel to the western side of Canada. Then I lived on the West Coast for quite a few years, working in different restaurants and whatnot. I still do tattoos, but I predominantly do other random jobs. I’ve stuck with art my whole life more than anything else. It’s the way I’ve always been.

Jill – I didn’t find my artistic side till I was 30, or I guess I rediscovered it when I was 30. I was an artist as a child, then I went to business school and did all these other things, so I lost it.

How did your journey start and what triggered you guys to go on this trip?

Jill – Our first overseas trip together as a couple in 2015 or 2016 over Christmas, we visited the coast of Bulgaria on the Black Sea. We thought it would be cool to live there and thought about the costs of apartments. We started looking into things and thinking, it’d be so neat and would be a nice place to live. Looking back, that triggered a thought in our minds that maybe we could live in other places in the world. We don’t have to live in Canada. But we were back in a cycle of debt. It had been a year since our trip to Europe, and we hadn’t been able to travel again because we’re in debt. We were trying to pay our bills; it was winter, and we only had seasonal work. We were mainly working in the summer. We had a few long months wondering how the heck we were going to survive. I was watching a documentary, and suddenly, it was like a lightning bolt hit me in the back of the head. I looked around the room, and I just started laughing. I thought if we didn’t have all this crap, we could travel all the time. You don’t even need a house; we could just travel. It was just like a lightning bolt moment. Suddenly, my stuff was worthless, and I realized it was in the way of traveling. Growing up traveling, I always just wanted to experience new places and cultures. I’m interested in people, and how they live and their cultures and food. It fascinates me how different every country and region are.

What was your timeline between making the decision to travel and setting off?

Jill – I watched the documentary on January 11, 2017. I came out of my office where I had been watching it and just said to Chris, can we talk about something for a second? I told him I think we should sell everything and travel, be free and do whatever we want. I had a couple of reservations; he was concerned about the plants he had planted in our yard. He was worried about where he would do tattooing because he had just started a new tattoo shop on the West Coast of Canada. I said there are plants everywhere in the world; who cares about our yard? We’ll find plants elsewhere. Then I said, you can tattoo anybody worldwide, the whole world could be your tattoo shop, you don’t have to do it in one place. After 10 minutes, I convinced him that it was a good idea. So literally, by the end of January, we had started going around the house and packing things that seemed unimportant to us. Every week, it got easier and easier. The things that were difficult at the beginning to get rid of got easier towards the end. When we first discussed it, we thought it would take a year to two years to get rid of everything. We didn’t want to tell anyone as we weren’t in a rush. We took it slowly.

Then I signed up for a hosting website in February or March. I could sign up with our profile and see what happens; you never know. A lady messaged us in April and said she had a house in Costa Rica. She needed a house sitter from September till December. We still had to finish getting rid of our stuff, and we needed to complete the renovations we had started before selling our house. We both had summer work contracts in place, so I said September wouldn’t work for us. She agreed to get a couple for September and October, and we would be able to come down for November and December. I said, sure, we’ll make that work. So, we left Canada, October 14. It was nine months of going for it, selling, giving away, renovating, and finishing our jobs. It was crazy. We collapsed on a beach in Costa Rica for four months after.

How has the traveling lifestyle changed your perspective?

Chris – Technically, it’s not that big of a change from my original lifestyle. I lived in many places in Canada; I was moving every six months or so. I would find a new home and stay there for a bit, and then I moved on. It was really different when I moved to warm tropical areas. I have craved warm tropical regions ever since. Whenever we get to colder countries, I always seem to be wishing for warmer ones now.

What are some of the things that you do when you’re traveling?

Jill – It depends on where we are. We had a mural project in Costa Rica at a hospital. The owner found out we were artists and asked us to paint scarlet macaws in the jungle on a piece of plywood. We had never done a large-scale painting, so we were a little bit unsure. But we thought, we’re artists, let’s try it and see what happens. The worst-case scenario would be to paint white over the top and get someone else to do it. So, we did it, and it worked out well. We traded our art for accommodation. When you’re on the road full time, it’s essential to figure out ways to save money and save as many expenses as you can, especially with accommodation. Now when we get to countries, we search for opportunities by emailing hostels or hotels and saying we’re artists, here’s our work. Do you need any projects done?

When we got to Sudan, we were exhausted. We had a hard time traveling in Egypt, and getting to Sudan was a traumatizing experience. We came down from Egypt by bus, but we didn’t know that our cards wouldn’t work in the ATM. We had $90 in cash with us. We arrived, and we didn’t know how to get money which had never happened before. So, for like a week, we were running around like chickens with their heads cut off. By the time we went to Port Sudan on the coast, we wanted to stay in one place and relax. We met a man who found us an apartment for close to $200 a month. It was a place to relax. If we get to a place where we feel energetic and want to do some art projects, we go for it. If we need to relax, then we’ll get a spot and just relax. We don’t always fully relax. We work on our online projects.

How did you end up getting money in Sudan?

Jill – Western Union, we had to get money sent to Estonia, which neither of us had ever used before. We had no idea how it worked, but it worked great. It took us a few days to figure it out. It was an interesting few months. Sudan is challenging;  they’ve just changed their government over in 2019, and they’ve never really had tourism before. So, it’s not an easy place to travel, but it was a great experience. The thing we liked most was the people. In Egypt, their tourism economy is down, and they hounded us relentlessly; it’s like a sport for them. But when we got to Sudan, they wanted to take care of us and talk to us. They didn’t want anything from us, and that was the most significant difference. They were so friendly and interested in us. Because there have been so few foreigners there, they just wanted to talk and practice their English.

How do you choose your next destination?

Chris – Things kind of float in the breeze that way, like Costa Rica, just came up at random, so we went there. Then while we were in Costa Rica, another host in Guatemala came up, so we went there.

Jill – We were supposed to do a four-month host in Nicaragua, and then the Civil War broke out while we were there. There was shooting in the streets, and chaos was happening. So, we were out of there. We went back to Costa Rica, and we had to figure out our next plan. We had a house booked in Guatemala, so we thought, let’s just go up to Guatemala. We try to leave all options open and see what comes up. When we were leaving Sudan, our visa was expiring. When we travel to Africa or go back to Egypt, we will travel by land, no more flying; we are not scared of it, but we have a lot of luggage.

Traveling by bus across the border is so much more peaceful. You see so much more, and you get the local’s experience. Unfortunately, there was a conflict on the southern border of Sudan, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. The security within the country was questionable, and everybody we talked to said, don’t go there; it’s not worth it. So, we decided to fly. Then we didn’t want to go back north because it was still winter. We decided to go south, and Uganda called to us; we don’t know why. The jungles were calling us; we’re looking for green and warmth. We’re primarily in desert regions in Morocco, then Turkey for a couple of months, then Egypt and Sudan; all are deserts. So, we wanted tropics, lush green tropics.

Chris – When we left Canada, it was 36 degrees Celsius. So, when we got to Turkey, winter was beginning, and we left on New Year’s Day.

Jill – That’s how Egypt came about; we’re trying to run away from COVID. There’s not a lot of COVID in Africa, so that was another reason we went.

Tell us more about your art project?

Chris – Each mural will have themes and qualities of the local landscape and culture.

Jill – Often, they’ll have a bit of an idea of what they’re looking for. They’ll make a suggestion or give us an idea of a concept. Then we’ll come up with a drawing for them to look at, and they’ll say yes or no. We go from there. So far, all our murals have been representations of the country we’re in; there’s symbolism representing a country or culture. We try to bring in the local scenery and animals.

How have your travels influenced your artistic impressions or creativity?

Jill – He has been influenced by a lot of animals, plants, and insects.

Chris – In Costa Rica, I drew so many birds.

Jill – I’m more influenced by patterns. Monaco and Turkey were mind-blowing, and Africa inspired me for sure. I’m also starting to realize I have a bit of a fascination with buildings and architectural structures. Right now, we’re painting a mural where we’re staying, and it has this little village of African houses tucked into a hillside. I feel like it’s my imaginary world, my perfect imaginary world; it’s a representation of where we are. I did the same sort of magical world in Turkey as well but with little Arab buildings.

Do you actively seek out certain things to get inspiration, or does it come from daily life?

Chris – I would say it’s everyday life that influences us.

Jill – We get as close to living like a local as we possibly can. We’re interested in learning about their cultures and traditions, so we think about their culture, which comes from day-by-day existence. Everybody here is living for today; they’re not concerned with tomorrow or the next day or the future or saving up for retirement. So, we are living a life like that. When COVID came, that became obvious; we were in Morocco. I was writing a book about it, scared out of my mind about what was happening in the world. I realized we don’t have control over it, only over what we’re doing right now. We became focused; we pulled our focus back to right here and now, taking it one day at a time. That’s pretty much the way we are now.

How have you found the lifestyle transition?

Jill – My shoulders aren’t quite up to my ears anymore. We’ve taken on a crazy project, and the old me wouldn’t have been able to sleep. I’d be running around, stressed out, yelling at people; I would have been going crazy. Now we take it one day at a time. You know, we’ll get there. Easy does it.

Chris – It’s not worth getting too stressed over. It took us a year after leaving North America to stop feeling the stress from North America finally. I no longer feel all this. All of this pressure, the pressure is the worse. I remember the first couple of days that we were in Costa Rica, Jill sat on the couch and read a book. An hour later, she jumped up off the couch and said she couldn’t be doing this every day; she questioned the purpose of her life?

Jill – We had to go back to Canada to help my parents sell some stuff because they were downsizing. It was also their 50th wedding anniversary, so it was worth the trip. I threw them a surprise party. Going back to Canada after being away for two years was okay initially. Still, there was a bit of a culture shock. It was a reverse culture shock. The hardest part was trying to maintain our focus on our art and focus on our websites. Our friends and family were trying to give us jobs; we were battling against getting back into that society. The funny thing is no matter how hard we fought it, by the time we got to Morocco, we realized that we were wrapped up in it again. It took us a few months of being in Morocco to readjustment. I think it’s the pace; everything is fast. You can’t help but get wrapped up in it again.

Chris – It’s always been a funny transition when we leave the business to go back to relaxing.

Tell us about your fundraising for a village in Uganda?

Jill – Every country that we arrive in, we didn’t have a plan. We didn’t even know we were coming to Uganda until a week before we left Sudan. We got to Kampala, and I just started emailing and searching Facebook for hostels or hotels. Whatever came up at the top of the list, I messaging or emailing, saying we’re artists, and maybe you need some of our services. This guy got back and said he was interested; what do you need from me. We usually try to get accommodation and a bit of a food allowance. But he said he couldn’t give a food allowance but can do accommodation. He was in Kampala, so we all had a meeting. He worked for the Uganda Community Tourism Association. It’s an association building communities and promoting tourism, and incorporating the community members into the tourism. All their hotels have village tours or artisans in the village selling crafts and little gift shops. It’s trying to bridge the gap between the locals and the tourists and getting tourists involved in the local’s lives, which is fantastic. He had two locations where he needed us.

We ended up in the Savanna lands, where there are elephants and vast grasslands. We got a Boda Boda, which is a taxi in Uganda. They take us up into the mountains to this incredible jungle and developments with a running river; it was spectacular. It was a white zone; there was no internet, no cell phone, and we had to walk 15 minutes down the road to get a connection. We weren’t sure what we were supposed to be doing. We had this mentality of we’re here for free, we have got to work. It’s an exchange. We were told to relax and go on a village tour and get to know the area. That turned into ten days of literally doing nothing.

Chris – We did the village forest tour and all the activities they usually take all the tourists on.

Jill – Finally, after ten days, we got to paint our mural. When it was done, we were reenlisted to come here. When we arrived, there was this beautiful little gift shop, campground, and hotel, but there was zero signage. It was just a red building. So, we decided to paint a sign that says what is available and started painting outside the building. We got it almost completed, and then it started raining, so we moved inside and worked on another mural, really transforming the little gift shop. Chris and I had noticed that many storefronts were closed, and the market stalls were empty.

People were so hungry; they slept all day. Nobody had any money to buy things either. We were witnessing the decline of a village of people. They depended heavily on tourism, and everyone knows how COVID has affected everyone. They had also had a considerable drought that killed all their crops. They were left without food and money; it was like a double whammy. We had been there for four weeks or five weeks, and it kept getting worse every day. We started thinking about what we could do and how many people were in the village. We found out it would cost about $1,000 to feed the whole village for a week. So, we decided to make a video and put it on Facebook and see what happens. We don’t know if anyone would care as everyone was dealing with their own issues.

Within a minute of posting, people sent transfers into my bank account because Canada has an E-transfer system. There are five big banks in Canada, and if you bank with them, you can easily send an E transfer to another bank. Suddenly, my email inbox started flooding with $50, $100, $200 donations. It happened in minutes. I was so excited as we could get food the next day. We went to a nearby city and ordered huge sacks of flours and dry beans and had them delivered that day. By the next morning, we were handing out food to the village. So, in less than 40 hours from hearing that they needed food, we were handing food out.

What are other sustainable ways you are helping the community?

Jill – The day we were delivering food, I knew that they didn’t have running water. When we went into the village, there was a main tap in the center that everyone uses, and they had to pay the equivalent of 30 cents to use it. So, it turned out that water was more of a problem for them than food. We found out how much it would cost to solve the problem, and we got $3,000 donated overnight. It took us a little while to get the water figured out, but they were getting free water by the next day. We figured out a system where the fire department from the nearby city fills their tanker truck. They come and fill up many massive water catchment systems around town; it costs $100 a week for the entire village to get free water. Then I thought about whether the people are sick and could assess them. Some people in the village had malaria and typhoid. So, we got the medication they needed.

One thing led to another, and now we are starting to teach them about composting and permaculture sustainable practices. We were huge gardeners in Canada. We lived in an area where everybody had a garden and did sustainable practices, so we have a lot of knowledge in that regard. There’s a huge need for it here; their soils are so depleted, it’s like dry dust. They’ve had two food drops so far, and there’s another one coming soon. So, we’re keeping them fed, and we’re keeping them watered, and we’re getting them excited. There’s a buzz in the village, and people are getting excited.

The mural paintings have been put to the side right now as other things have taken over. Things are just falling into place when we need them. It’s working out. I think the more you can allow things to unfold and stay out of the way, the more things transpire precisely how they’re supposed to be. You’re not forcing anything; they just sort of pop into place. The most exciting part is that people are excited, and they’re on board; they’re willing to learn. They’ve gone down as far as they can go before; they’re basically dying. So, there’s only one way to go, and they realize that.

Having seen these problems first-hand, how has that changed your perspective in life?

Chris – It’s similar to different things that we saw in the Islamic world where like, behind doors that no one talks about.

Jill – That was an eye-opener for us. Everyone silently went about their business. The locals don’t want to tell other people their problems; they don’t want to burden them. I think that’s been the most enlightening thing for me. We need to ask people and check in on people and see how they are doing. As travelers, I realize how important it is for us to ask questions and see what’s happening and anything we can do. You don’t need to worry about having a charity. You don’t need to create a structure. You don’t need to sign a permission slip, just buy the food, take it to their door, forget the rest of the nonsense. It’s super easy.

What are some ways to find legit channels to help these communities?

Jill – Find a place to help and start talking to people to see what’s going on. If you can find a doctor in the community, ask what the real issues are or talk to an official person. The less red tape, the better. We did it so quickly, and we were able to start a GoFundMe page. It took them six days to release the money and confirm that my account was legitimate. Thankfully, I got the transfers and gave them food right away. I don’t think people would be alive six days later; it’s bureaucratic red tape that drives me crazy. I’m super thankful that many people we know trust us; they know that we’re here to do good, and that’s why we were able to do what we did. So, we’re lucky that way.

What are some of the tips to overcome challenges you might face when traveling?

Jill – The first thing that comes to my mind is burnout. I think our senses get overwhelmed. If you’re moving around too much and not feeling settled, it gets exhausting after a while. These are when we would find an apartment, take care of ourselves, do our own things, relax, and recover, ready for the next phase of our journey. I would say pay attention to how much you’re trying to accomplish. You’ll never see everything. Sometimes you have to say no, take care of yourself and make sure that you stay healthy. Keep an open mind and being flexible. Try not to have too much of a plan and too much of a schedule at the start.

Chris – We have seen people ruin their vacations by nitpicking and complaining over the menial stuff. If you just let it go, the rest of your trip will be good. Just enjoy yourself.

Jill – We don’t have anywhere to be. We don’t have a schedule. We don’t have a plan. The villagers keep asking us how long we will be staying, and we say we will stay as long as you need us. We don’t want to throw them some food, take off, and then two months down the road; they’re in the same situation. We realize this is a commitment, and we love Uganda. I think that’s what’s making it easy. We can see ourselves staying here another six months to even a year if we need to see these projects through and make sure that they’ve learned the skills to help them move forward. It’s nice not to have a schedule.

Where can people find out more of your story to support your travel or the initiative?

Jill – YouTube is a big one. You’ll find us on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook; we have a website, Artistic Voyages. Our brand name is Artistic Voyages. Unfortunately, our new page isn’t on there right now because it’s difficult to get the connection to edit it. If somebody is listening that wants to help with editing for me, Instagram and Facebook are the best ways to contact us.  

Veganism can actually be a positive force in enhancing your travel experiences, and appreciation for local culture & food.

Wendy from The Nomadic Vegan debunks the myth that being vegan will negatively affect your travels and shares her tips on how you can prepare for a trip as a vegan traveler.

We speak about nutritional needs, scouting for food in countries with predominantly meat based diets, as well as vegetarian and vegan cuisines around the world and the culinary experiences they can still offer.

Lots of valuable insights and travel tips for vegan and vegetarian travelers.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

How long have you been traveling as a vegan?

I’ve been traveling for a long time now; basically, my whole adult life, so more than 20 years. I’ve been traveling 20 something years, living a nomadic or semi-nomadic lifestyle. I became vegan about seven and a half years ago. I don’t know precisely how many countries I’ve been to since becoming vegan; I’m thinking maybe 30. I have traveled to lots of different continents. I’ve been to Africa, Asia, South America, and Europe as a vegan. I have a lot of tips and tricks that I can share with people.

Why did you choose to become vegan?

I grew up eating everything; my family was not vegetarian or vegan. I started looking into it in 2014. It was initially for health reasons that I started becoming interested in plant-based nutrition.

I wasn’t having any particular health problems myself. Still, my father had recently passed away from complications from type two diabetes. He was in a terrible situation for the last couple of months of his life; he was completely bedridden. I saw that and thought, I don’t want to end up like that, and that’s when it hit me. I started thinking more about my own lifestyle choices and what kind of changes and decisions I could take to improve my health and have a long healthy life. That’s how I stumbled upon plant-based nutrition and veganism; I didn’t know anything about it. I didn’t know any vegans; I’d never met a vegan before.

Through the internet and listening to different podcast interviews like this with other experts, I found out about the health benefits of eating a plant-based diet. I continued to research and found out about the environmental impacts of our food choices and the enormous environmental destruction caused by animal agriculture. I also discovered the terrible things happening to animals in the meat industry and egg and dairy industries.

I’m an animal lover. I’ve always considered myself as someone who loves animals. I just realized that this was a decision that I needed to make to live in alignment with my values. It didn’t make sense to say that I love animals and then be eating them. It was a transition period of a few months. I didn’t go from one day eating everything and then the next day being vegan. It was a gradual transition. I went vegetarian pretty early on and then gradually cut out other animal products as well. I wanted to go fully vegan, but one of the biggest things holding me back was that I was afraid it would ruin my travel.

Travel was a big part of my life and still is. I didn’t know if it was possible to find vegan food in some places that I wanted to go to on my wish list. It was scary to think that I might not visit these places if I could commit to being vegan. So I decided to do a trial run for vegan travel; my husband and I had already booked a three-week trip to Greece. I decided I would eat only vegan for the three weeks that we were in Greece. If I could do that, I would reevaluate my ideas about how easy or hard vegan travel was.

So basically, I never looked back; the day I became vegan was when my plane arrived in Greece. That was September 10, 2014; I can tell you the exact date because it was much easier than expected. I was surprised at how many vegan dishes there were in traditional Greek cuisine. I thought that I would be missing out on experiencing the local specialty dishes; I wouldn’t be able to try all these things. Some local specialties contain animal products, so I didn’t try those. But there were so many others that were vegan that I had never heard of. I researched beforehand and got to delve into the local cuisine and learn about it from a vegan perspective.

It opened up this whole new world. In addition to becoming a vegan traveler, I also became a foodie traveler. Food wasn’t that important to me previously when I was traveling; I would just eat cheap, easy, and available. Now I do more research and find out what the local specialties are and which ones to try. I looked for the best vegan, vegetarian or vegan-friendly restaurants to go to. I had wonderful culinary experiences during my travels that I hadn’t had before. It enriched my travels and made it even better for me.

Do you do a lot of research before you travel, on places to eat etc?

I do some research beforehand, and I recommend that people do that because the trip goes a lot more smoothly that way. I wasn’t a foodie traveler, and I didn’t grow up as a foodie at all. In my family, no one really cooked. My parents or mom mostly prepared meals for us when I was young, but it wasn’t home cooking. It mainly came out of a box or microwave dinners when I got a bit older. Food wasn’t a priority in my household, and I didn’t grow up with much appreciation for food.

Being vegan did give me that appreciation for food; it became a big part of my travel. When I said that I was worried that veganism would ruin my travel, it was more just that I didn’t know if it would be possible. I didn’t know if there was anything that I could eat, and traveling to certain places would mean starving, but that’s not the case at all. Like I’ll just tell everyone right now, you can be any you can be vegan anywhere. I’ve done it in many different places, some more vegan-friendly than others, and some areas are easier than others.

There are places where you may not have many options, and the food might not be the most exciting part of the trip, but it’s possible. So don’t ever think that being vegan has to be a limitation, and it has to stop you from going to where you want to go.

What are some ways that you research on where to eat before a trip?

The number one resource that I recommend is an app and website called Happy Cow. It’s a crowdsource worldwide directory of vegan, vegetarian and vegan-friendly restaurants. It also has other valuable businesses for travelers, for example, vegan or vegan-friendly B&Bs, and different types of accommodation. Sometimes they’ll list health food stores or organic food stores where you can find more vegan specialty products. Happy Cow is the first thing that I check when planning a trip to a new destination.

Depending on the destination, that might be all the research I do. I get a massive list of restaurants where I can eat, and then the problem becomes choosing which are the best ones and which ones I want to try. That’s becoming more and more the case, especially I’d say in Europe. I live in Lisbon, Portugal, so I do a lot of traveling around Europe. In most cities and towns in Europe, you have many options, whether purely vegetarian or vegan restaurants or restaurants adding vegan options to their menus because they see that the demand is growing. They’re responding to that and catering to that demand.

There are other locations where you won’t see as many options in Happy Cow. It does not mean that there is no vegan food in that particular destination. It means that you’re going somewhere that’s off the beaten track where not many travelers have been to before. Because it’s a crowdsourced directory, there will be fewer people adding entries in for that location, so you might need to do a bit more research on your own.

I would then suggest researching the local cuisine and finding out what people eat there. That’s not hard to do on the internet for any country’s cuisine; you can find out what the popular dishes are and what kind of ingredients are used. That gives you an idea of what you can ask for in a restaurant and what to avoid. For example, in Thailand, you may see lots of dishes that look like it’s just vegetables, tofu, and rice. Still, they’ve got some shrimp paste or some kind of fish sauce added into the mix when they were creating the sauce. So it’s a good idea to learn the words for those particular ingredients in the local language.

Ask someone who speaks that language to type out one or two sentences explaining what you don’t eat and what you do eat. You can suggest a few things you can eat, but if you’re very demanding and pushy about it, they might be less likely to help you. If you smile and are friendly, then they’re probably going to be nice back.

Has vegan traveling helped you understand other cultures?

It has become a way for me to learn more about the culture, and it’s opened this new window to places and cultures. It has helped me to learn more about it in a way that I wouldn’t otherwise. It’s also a conversation starter.

I love learning different languages and speaking the local language. Still, I’m also timid and not competent in my language skills, and shy about talking to the locals. But if I have to get this information across, I need to tell them I am vegan; this is what it means. Then that gets the conversation started, and they are curious about it. They want to know why I eat this way, so I get the opportunity to have conversations with local people and learn more about the places.

I believe that so much of it comes down to attitude. Your experience is mainly going to be shaped by the mindset that you bring to the experience. If you go in with a very negative attitude and think this will be so difficult, you will not get anything. People will be rude to you.

If you go into it with an open and positive attitude, you will get more out of the experience. I think the law of attraction has a huge impact. Two different people can look at the same menu, and one person would think they only have one vegan option; that’s terrible. But how many options do you need if you’re eating one meal there? You just need one. Be thankful that they do have a vegan option on their menu; some places won’t. But that also doesn’t mean that they can’t make a vegan meal for you, or there may be options listed that are vegan; they just haven’t marked them that way because they’re not thinking about it that way.

If you research the cuisine and the dishes, then once you see the name of a dish that you recognize, you can ask them, what does this have? Does it have cheese on it? Could you leave off the cheese? So I think attitude makes or breaks the experience, not just in the sense of traveling as a vegan, but the whole travel experience. The entire experience of life comes down to our attitude.

Are there any countries you have found it challenging to find vegan foods?

It can vary a lot from one country to the next. One country might be very different from even the neighboring country.

My most recent trip to South America was to Brazil, Bolivia, and Paraguay. Brazil was probably the easiest, which would surprise many people because they think meat is a huge part of Brazilian culture, cuisine, and economy. It’s a big part of their identity, but there is also a growing vegan movement. Especially in the big cities, like Rio de Janeiro, you’ll find many vegan and vegetarian restaurants and smaller cities like Ichiban, which is in the south. There were lots of veggie restaurants there, too.

The biggest tip for Brazil that I can give people is to go to the lowkey restaurants because it’s a pay-by-weight buffet. These are popular all over Brazil, you’ll find them everywhere. You get to choose which dishes you want to put on your plate; they always have beans and rice, a standard staple food in Brazil. You can easily make up a full, balanced healthy meal out of that.

Occasionally, you’ll find that they’ve added little bits of meat to the beans, so you need to look and make sure; they are generally easy places to eat. If you don’t find anything on Happy Cow that looks like it’s specifically vegan friendly, I would say go to one of these kilo restaurants.

Also, Brazil is a vast country, but it has an excellent bus network and some of the most comfortable buses I’ve ever traveled on. I’d say Argentina and Brazil have some of the best places in the world; I traveled the countries entirely by bus.

I didn’t take any flights. I went from San Luigi in the North to Panthenol in the South. When the buses stopped for meals, they would stop at one of these kilo restaurants. You would only get 20 minutes to eat a meal, so you have to eat quickly with whatever’s there. It might be more limited in other countries, but I found that it wasn’t a problem in Brazil.

Paraguay was probably the most difficult, but it’s not a very popular destination anyway. There’s not a lot to see in Paraguay. I went because I want to go everywhere and I’m curious about the world in general. There’s nowhere that I don’t want to go because I think everywhere is interesting. There aren’t many tourism sites that would attract people to Paraguay.

The local cuisine doesn’t have many plant-based dishes, but there was one restaurant in the capital. It had a whole vegan section of the menu with some wonderful dishes. They even had some vegan versions of Paraguayan dishes, so I did get to try the local specialties. In most places that I’ve been to, it’s becoming more and more common.

When I first became vegan seven years ago, there weren’t nearly as many options as there are now. The movement is growing, and lots of places are offering vegetarian and vegan versions of their local specialty dishes.

That’s what you’ll find in Happy Cow, so I recommend downloading that app because you won’t find those dishes everywhere. If you know which specific restaurants are offering these vegan specialties, then you can go check them out.

Do you have any concerns about getting the nutrients your body needs?

B12 is the one nutrient that is not available in plants. It’s not available in animals as well. It comes from bacteria in animal-based foods. I won’t go into the scientific details, but the bottom line is that you need to take B12 supplements as a vegan.

I do that at home and when I’m traveling. You can buy them cheaply, and it’s a small pill. Most of the time, you take it two or three times a week. So that’s something every vegan should do.

As far as having a more balanced and healthy diet generally, many people are concerned about protein. We don’t need as much protein as the animal agriculture industry wants us to think we do. A lot of people in the West get too much animal protein. It is an underlying cause of many major health issues for people in the United States and other countries.

I don’t worry too much about protein, but I try to make sure I have at least one meal a day with a high protein intake. That could be any legume beans, chickpeas, lentils, or tofu. If you’re in an Asian country, then tempeh as well. Seitan, which is from wheat gluten, is not as common to find, but you’ll see it sometimes in Asia as well.

You probably won’t be eating quite as balanced or healthy of a diet as you would be at home. Or maybe you just eat vegan junk food at home all the time because that’s also really easy to do these days. There are all kinds of vegan foods available that are not healthy at all.

You probably will be eating pretty healthily because it’s largely whole foods that are available to you. Those foods are available everywhere. Whereas vegan junk food is a niche market that you’re more likely to have access to at home, but not when you’re traveling to off-the-beaten-track places.

Do you bring B12 supplements with you when you are traveling?

I’ve always brought it with me just to be safe. I think that’s the easiest thing to do. You probably can find it in most places, but I think it’s a good idea just to bring it with you.

Has traveling as a vegan affected your traveling costs?

My cost probably did go up because becoming vegan coincided with me being more interested in food and having better gastronomical experiences while traveling. Whereas before, I would have gone to McDonald’s all the time. When I became vegan, that wasn’t an option.

If I were to eat out in restaurants, it would be more expensive than the previously chosen options. I was going for whatever was cheap and inconvenient. So that is a consideration, but it is dirt cheap to buy beans, vegetables, and rice if you cook for yourself. It’s a shame that there’s such a markup because it’s the same foods being sold in the restaurants. But because it’s trendy, they can get away with raising their prices.

It doesn’t happen in all restaurants. I have been to vegan and vegetarian restaurants that are very reasonably priced. I hope to see more of that, but it’s a mix. Some places are a bit pricier. I don’t go to really fancy gourmet restaurants. That’s not the kind of experience that I’m looking for. Sometimes the restaurants are a bit more expensive than what I would have chosen in the past.

Meals with meat cost more. In terms of the environmental impact, it’s a very inefficient way to produce food. Because you have to produce a lot more grain to feed the animal and then eat the animal than if you were just producing the grain to eat that grain yourself.

Then different types of pollution come with it. So it should cost more; unfortunately, a lot of countries subsidize their animal agriculture, and so the price for those products is artificially low. That gets reflected in the prices in the restaurants as well.

I think that’s something that’s going to have to change very soon because the current worldwide consumption of meat is not sustainable. I believe that is one reason we see a growing interest in vegan and vegetarian lifestyles because people realize the environmental impact of this industry and want to live in an environmentally friendly way.

Tell us a bit more about your experiences with different cuisine?

Many countries do have a tradition and history of eating vegan or vegetarian, in some cases, dating back hundreds, if not 1000s of years, relating to the Buddhist religion or the Hindu religion and other Asian religions.

It may not be that everyone in that country eats a vegetarian or vegan diet all the time, but they still have this tradition. It may be just the monks eat in this way, and the laypeople do it at certain times of the year for festivals. You have it in Orthodox Christian countries; in Eastern Europe, Greece, Ethiopia, and Africa have the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. In those countries, they have what they refer to as fasting. When I say fasting in English, typically, that means eating nothing at all. But in this sense, that’s not what it means. They still eat, but they just don’t eat certain foods.

It varies a little bit from country to country as to what the rules are for fasting, but it’s pretty much a vegan diet or an almost vegan diet.

That’s an easy shortcut you can take if you’re traveling in Eastern Europe, Greece, Russia, or Ethiopia. You can ask for fasting food, which was one of the first things I learned when I was on a Greece trip in 2014. When I was trying to be a vegan traveler for the first time, people didn’t know the word vegan in Greece; I think now, it’s changed a lot. I don’t think I ever ate in a fully vegan restaurant in Greece. I think I ate in a vegetarian restaurant only once. The rest of the time, I was just in mainstream restaurants. I could say the Greek word for fasting food, and they would tell me what they had. There were lots of options. The fasting tradition in the Orthodox countries means lots of plant-based dishes have been created within that cuisine.

India is the best country in the world to be vegetarian. I would say vegan is a little bit trickier because they use a lot of milk products, especially in the north of India, not so much in the south. They’re more likely to use coconut milk rather than cow’s milk. There are plenty of options in the north, but you have to be clear that you don’t want any milk products, and it’s best to list them individually. But other than that, the food in India is fantastic; I adore Indian food.

Taiwan is another place that has a massive variety of food. They have so many different kinds of dishes and a long tradition of vegan and vegetarian eating for religious reasons. There is a pretty strong animal rights-based vegan movement among the younger generations. So Taiwan is terrific for vegan travel.

That’s probably one of my favorite places and all of China. It’s just that if you don’t speak Chinese, it’s harder to communicate in China than it is in Taiwan. They’re not as familiar with veganism, whereas the Taiwanese are pretty familiar with veganism.

You travel with your husband regularly; is he vegan?

He didn’t go vegan at the same time that I did. Initially, we were traveling together with just me being vegan. That was a little bit more of a challenge. We had to compromise, which you always have to do in relationships.

He would want to go to a traditional local place to try the local foods, but they wouldn’t have many options for me. One of us would choose where to go for lunch, and then the other decide where to eat for dinner. We made it work that way.

I will admit it’s a lot easier now we’re both vegans. Now we want the same things. We can look on Happy Cow and see which restaurants seem the best options for vegan food.

If you’re traveling with non-vegans, then you have to compromise. I don’t mean a compromise in the sense that you’re going to have to eat non-vegan food sometimes. You can still stay vegan yourself, but you might not get to eat where you want or your preferred place for every meal.

If you’re traveling with non-vegan friends and planning a trip together, I suggest you talk about it beforehand. And make it clear what your needs are and your expectations, and set boundaries. Maybe put a rule like you choose the place for lunch. I decide the place for dinner or maybe your friend is perfectly happy to eat vegan along with you. Still, it is something that you should probably talk about beforehand.

Do you bring along any spices for cooking or vegan snacks?

I usually bring an emergency snack stash, so I know that I always have something. Usually, these days, it’s not necessary. I might not end up eating any of that food, but it just gives me peace of mind to know that it’s there then I know that I’m not going to starve.

I always know that I have something in my bag that I can eat. I would recommend doing that. It can be snacks like quinoa bars or raw date snack bars. They are handy for traveling.

Our most recent trip was walking the Camino de Santiago through Spain and Portugal, which we do every year. We walk a different route from the Camino de Santiago; this was our fifth one. We were walking through remote areas in Spain and Portugal on the one that we did this year. So I did carry more food than I would typically, and sometimes we needed it. It really came in handy.

We carried things like fried fava beans, which is a pretty common snack food in Portugal. You can buy them where you would buy nuts and potato chips. You’ll often see bags of fried fava beans which are nutritious. They’re a good source of protein and are pretty filling. The fried part makes them a bit less healthy, but there’s still good nutrition in them. We don’t tend to cook very often when we travel; we eat out for most meals. So we don’t usually bring spices.

We took salt and pepper when we were on the Camino to make sandwiches; we could at least use it to give a little bit more flavor. That depends on the individual traveler. Some people may want to do a lot more cooking, whether to keep the cost down or because they enjoy cooking. In that case, I think it does make sense to bring a few spices and things like that with you.

What are your best tips for vegan travel?

I’ve already talked about doing some research beforehand. I think that is important. Happy Cow, the website is happycow.net, and you can access all the information there for free, or you can download the app, which I think might cost a few dollars, but it’s worth it. It’s one of the best investments to make if you’re looking to find vegan or vegetarian food while you’re traveling.

And attitude we talked about as well, I think that’s crucial; going into the whole experience with a positive attitude.

I’ve got several more tips that I wrote and compiled together in an ebook, which you can download for free on my website. It’s called Nine Steps for Easy Vegan Travel. If you go to the my blog, you’ll find a picture of the book on the homepage. You can click it and download it totally for free.

How does it feel to travel around the world living on a boat and have summer all year round? Simon and Carla from Sailing Ocean Fox shares all the tips and tricks to living the Yacht life on their Catamaran. We speak about exciting travel stories of boats drifting off coast at night, adventures of Dobby the naked cat and very valuable insights to setting up your own sailing travel lifestyle. 

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Let’s start with an introduction! Tell us about you and your background story.

Simon – I’m Simon, this is my wife, Carla, and we’ve been living on our 30-foot catamaran for over three years now. We sailed 26,000 miles. We bought her in Croatia, sailed through the Mediterranean sea, the Atlantic, around the Caribbean, and across to Panama, Mexico, and Cuba, and then back across the Atlantic to Portugal.

What do people think about your traveling lifestyle?

Simon – People think this lifestyle is a stress-free type of lifestyle, sitting around enjoying cocktails and looking at sunsets. We do get those, but there are constant worries over affording to stay in marinas the whole, which most of us do because that’s the best place to be. There is quite a lot of stress over whether your anchor holds if it gets windy and things like that. So it is more stressful than you think?

Docking in Marinas is the natural option, but what is your other option if you don’t do that?

Simon – There are three options. One is in the Marina or in a harbor where you’re tied to the land. The next option is you can take Mooring Buoy, which connects to the seabed you won’t find those everywhere. The problem with that is that they will probably charge you for using it, which could be anything from 10/30 dollars per night. Or you use your anchor laid into the seabed and hang off that. And usually, that’s very successful.

Carla – Yeah, that’s what we do; usually, It’s free, so that’s an excellent way to live because we don’t pay to moor in a marina. And then you have the stress of not having enough electricity or hot water, just things like that.

Simon – I think we stayed at anchor over 30 days in one hit.

How does the weather affect your travels?

Simon – It is a constant worry. We don’t go one day without checking the weather. Even in the Caribbean, it can get quite rough there.

Carla – It can be pretty rough, and sometimes you just don’t sleep because the weather turns.

Simon – We had a funny experience once we went to bed and everything was fine. It was a very calm night; there was no wind. I got up at six in the morning to make a coffee, and the island was a speck on the horizon. We had drifted off for about three to four miles, and a big commercial fishing net slowly comes down the coast and wrapped around our anchor, and ripped it out the seabed.

Do you have an emergency alarm?

Simon – You can get an app on your phone, which works off GPS; you can set it to go off if you drift more than 50/100 meters. Unusually we would just wake up if the feel of the boat changes.

Did you find it difficult you get used to?

Simon – Because our catamaran is very steady, especially when you’re in a bay, it is very level; it doesn’t rock around too much. If you’re on a Monohull, which is a boat with only one hull as opposed to ours, which has got two, they do tend to sway around quite a lot. That could be pretty uncomfortable in some circumstances.

Carla – And even so on the catamaran, sometimes we get movement, which can be irritating.

What made you decide to uproot your life and go sailing?

Simon – Well, we just got married in Barbados, it was very lovely. And we had all our children; we have two children each, our four children are out there with us. We were lying on a sunbed, and two days after we got married, Carla said to me, why don’t we sell the house and buy a boat and go sailing? It took me a little bit of time to get used to the idea because I’ve been sailing before, and I’ve had four yachts before, but I’d never sailed that far. One journey, overnight, around 22 hours, is the longest I’d traveled across the English Channel. So to think about sailing an ocean was quite frightening. I think Carla didn’t understand because she’d never sailed before. She didn’t have any knowledge to base any fear on.  That is how we decided to do this, and then it was around about 15 months later, we sold the house because we were selling one home and buying another. And so it was back 15 months later when we sold the second house and purchased the boat. And off we went. We never really looked back, to be honest. It was fantastic. I really enjoyed it.

Carla  – So I always loved the sea, and I used to have motorboats. So I want to be around the ocean and go back to boat life. I just felt like we were there, we were happy, we should make some changes in our lives. I was busy with work and life. I used to have five jobs working 80 hours a week. So I just thought, let’s do something, let’s make our life a bit more unique and do something special for ourselves. Because so far, we have just been doing what ordinary people do; work and raise kids. We wanted to have a different experience.

Simon – We wanted to do something special with our lives because we had been together for a few years. We’ve both had relationships before, and we wanted this to be different and special and exciting. We certainly achieved that. Our rig took us through the Mediterranean, and after about five months, we were in Gibraltar. Then we went down to the Canary Islands, then down to Cape Verde, another set of islands off the African coast. From there, we did the big Atlantic crossing to Barbados, which is about 2000 nautical miles.

Do you follow the tropical weather?

Simon – Yeah, absolutely. I promised Carla we would only ever have summer.

Did you have a timeline for your trip?

Simon – I think we knew we were going to stay for about two years. We’ve done it for just over three years; we are actually in the process of making a change at the moment. We’ve been on the boat for about three years.

What was the reason behind the boat change?

Simon – We sold our boat in Spain about five weeks ago. We’re just in the process of buying a huge barge, which is an ex-commercial barge. It is 156 feet long. We’re going to convert it into a house which we can use on the rivers in England and on the continent.

Carla – I get very seasick. So, for example, when we leave to start an ocean crossing, I’m sick the first two days. I got the beat tired of that because it’s been over two years, and I need a bit of time. Also, our children are starting to get married and have kids; we wanted to be around for a while.

Simon – My daughter is having my first grandchild in a month. So we wanted to be back here and spend a bit of time back in the UK to see them and get to know the grandchildren. It’s not an ideal place to live on a catamaran. That also influenced us to buy a barge, but we never thought we would buy a complete shell. The project is enormous.

First, we have the boat cut in half and 20 meters of the boat cut out because it is far too big and far too long; this is a massive project and quite scary but equally exciting.

Are you doing the construction yourselves or getting professional help?

Simon – To physically cut the boat and put it back together, we have to get professionals in a dry dock. The people do need to know what they’re doing. But once the significant metalwork is over and done with, we’re going to be doing everything. Things like hot

water systems, heating systems, electrical systems. We’re going to make it as self-sufficient as possible so it’ll have many solar panels, generating a lot of electricity to run the heating systems and things like that. We can never be sustainable because it’s got an engine to make it go. Still, it is going to be as sustainable as possible.

Simon – I think the plan is next summer to have it down here in the South of England on the River Thames. It just passes through the lock with 50 millimeters on each side.

Carla – We like the stress.

Simon – I think it’s going to be a fantastic project. It will give us something to do over the next couple of years and get this thing looking good and smart. It’s going to have three bedrooms, three bathrooms, and a vast living room kitchen.

Are boats an asset investment or liability? Will you be able to make a profit on it if you sell it in the future?

Simon – It depends on what you buy, you need to be very careful what you buy and how much you pay for it. Our catamaran, for example, was built by a French company called Lagoon. They are one of the biggest catamaran manufacturers in the world. Even though we’ve done 26,000 miles, we sold it for more than we paid for it. We did have to do some upgrades to the boat to take it across the Atlantic twice. But relatively speaking, I think if you buy the right boat at the right price, you can get your money back. I’m not saying you can turn a profit by flipping it. If you were to buy a boat in Turkey or Montenegro, for example, and take it to the Caribbean and sell it there, if you bought it right, you would make a profit, I’m sure. We have considered doing that.

Carla – That’s one ofthe reasons we bought this specific brand. It was because we knew the resale price would be reasonable.

Simon – The barge is entirely different because we don’t get them by the manufacturer; you get them by type. There are many different types and styles,  made by all sorts of people. And some of these bargains are 100 years old. The one we’re buying is 70 years old. These things have been around for a long time. I think we’re probably paid the right price for this one, although I’d like to have had it for £10,000 cheaper.

What advantages are there to living the boating lifestyle?

Simon – You go to the most incredible places, which you would never get to go any other way. For example, we went to an Archipelago 350 Island called Los Roques of the Venezuelan coast; they belong to Venezuela. These were the most stunning islands; the waters were so clear and blue, the beaches were white, and they were utterly deserted. You could have gone there; if you’d flown and then got a boat out to the island but had everything there, you’re freezer, fridge, beer, wine, food, and everything.

Carla – We take our home with us all the time, so we are self-sustainable. We have everything.

Simon – An incredible thing to do. If you go on a package holiday, you just go to the airport, get transferred to the hotel, then you might go out on a tour or a trip. You get a different feeling about places than you do if you go on a package holiday.

Carla – the other thing is you get to know real people from that place. Because we have to deal with everyday things as if we were living there, we needed gas; we needed to go shopping and interact with the local people. So we get to know the people.

Simon – It’s a very different way of traveling. It is a long way of traveling; you tend to do about 150 miles in 24 hour period. It’s peaceful and lovely, very lovely. You also have to deal with many officials. When you arrive in a country or island, you have to go and see the Customs and Immigration people and fill in all the forms, ships papers and stuff like that. It is not the same as arriving at an airport where you flash your passport, and they put a stamp.

Carla – It can take from an hour, half an hour to the whole day. They’re very slow sometimes, and they are not together. We usually have to visit three official places, and they’re not together. We don’t have a car, so we have to walk or get transportation. So you arrive in a new place, you have to work out all these logistics, but it’s very exciting.

Simon – For example, we went to an area called Bocas Del Toro in Panama. It is a backpacker’s paradise to go there by boat and be sitting there. We have a little rigid inflatable thing, which we go from the main boat, and that’s quite exciting.

Do you think travel perspective is different depending on the mode of transport?

Simon – It took us 15 days to cross the Atlantic in one go, so 15 days at sea. We do not see anything; there is nothing out there, apart from the water. It is fascinating; we do a little fishing and catch big fish on the way. Carla is the head fisherperson.

Carla – You get into a very slow pace of mind when you are out at sea. Things happen slowly; you have a significant lack of sleeping during the night because you have to be on watch. During the day, things happen slowly, so you can sleep a bit more during the day.

Simon – We split the night into shifts; we do three hours each. So watch for three hours, and then we swap over.

What do you keep a lookout for?

Simon – It’s a legal requirement that somebody is on watch. We’re looking for ships that could do some harm to us, and we’re monitoring the weather.

Carla – The weather, if the wind turns, we have to put sails down or change the sails.

Simon – So you tend to sleep a little bit during the day to catch up on some of the sleep you miss.

Do you have issues with your body clock because of the schedule?

Simon – I think it takes about two or three days to get into the rhythm, and then you go to bed, and you go straight to sleep. You don’t need an alarm; you wake up two or three minutes before you have to be back on watch.

Carla – You might not sleep those three hours because we have a stringent rule onboard. If we need to go outside to adjust the sails or do anything else outdoors. We will wake up the other one, no matter if they are sleeping or not.

When you travel with your cat, are there any issues on board?

Simon – He gets seasick, so he spends a lot of time sleeping and not doing anything. Then as soon as we get to land, he’s out there sniffing the air trying to work out what it is because it’s a different smell to him. He can smell the different islands and things. He usually doesn’t go off the boat; he stays on the boat the whole time. He’s off the boat now and discovering other things to run around. He’s been perfect; he has fallen off four times into the ocean. Once he flipped off the front, that was pretty serious because it was over a 2 meters drop. He was in a bit of a shock. I had to dive in and swim underneath the boat and rescue him. The other times he’s fallen off trying to jump onto a pontoon or looking at fish over the back, so it’s complicated.

What other interesting stories do you have?

Simon – I think one of the most wonderful things we’ve done is meeting people along the way. It is effortless to meet people because you’re all anchored up together. Everybody has a flag at the back, so it’s easy to find another British flag, invite people to drink, go ashore in the evenings, and have a big barbecue. It is romantic, absolutely beautiful, especially if you’re eating fresh fish that you’ve recently caught. The bad thing is when the weather’s rough. It is tiring, rough, and inhospitable. We were going to Cuba from Mexico, and a real blow built up, and we got pushed south. We ended up having to go back to sea for another day, and we ended up on the south coast of Cuba, which we weren’t planning on doing but was wonderful.

Carla – It was an extra 1000 miles. We go slow, and we can be delighted.

Simon – Things never quite seem to go according to plan. Even with the best planning, you still can’t know what’s going to happen. When we came back across the Atlantic from the Caribbean to Europe, one of the legs was from Bermuda to the Azores. It was supposed to take 12 days; it took us 18. Mentally that isn’t easy because you’re prepared for 12 days at sea in your mind.

Carla – Then you end up staying 18 days, and your mind doesn’t cope with that situation, so you get upset and stressed.

How do you pack for supplies?

Simon – You don’t pack for 12 days; you pack for a lot longer than that. We have a watermaker on board, so we can’t run out of water because we can make water from the ocean; also, we have bottled water.

Carla – I always prepare the boat for three months.

Do you take lots of canned food as opposed to fresh?

Carla – We take fresh food too, we take vegetables and fruits. You have to choose vegetables carefully; you’re not going to choose loads of tomatoes. You’re going to choose things that will last longer.

Simon – Fresh fruit and vegetable, you can get it last two weeks if you’re careful with how you store them.

Do you find like-minded sailors to be younger or older?

Simon – You discover there are some people in their early 20s living this lifestyle. Some of these people are not wealthy, and they’ve got quite any old boat. Somehow they’ve managed to buy that, and you can see them struggling to maintain it. Then you get other people who are our age and even older. Some of them can be quite wealthy, and they just pay for everything to be fixed.

When you get to your destination, are you more of an outdoorsy type, or do you search for cultural experiences?

Simon – Well, there isn’t that much culture in the Caribbeans. So most of our days are walking or hiking. We did quite a lot in Colombia. For example, in Panama, we went up into the mountains, seeing waterfalls and various jungles and forests. So we do quite a lot of walking because we don’t have a car.

Carla – Also, when we stop from a journey to work because we were doing our YouTube videos and things, we need some time to catch up and put everything up to date.

What is your plan for your Youtube channel?

Simon – It was always part of the plan because we needed something to do to entertain ourselves.

Carla – We thought we needed to do something, so we thought we could do a channel so our family, friends, and other people could see what we were doing. We have been very successful. We have loads of subscribers; over 4 million views. We are doing well with that part.

Simon – It is fantastic. We love the comments that we get and interacting with people, whether on Facebook or YouTube, or Instagram.

Carla- We did it all from scratch. We did a lot of promotions, not paid promotions. We learned everything from scratch because I didn’t know anything about Facebook or Instagram, so I read and experimented and was out there as much as possible. It did pretty well.

What are some tips to grow a YouTube channel from scratch?

Carla – We do a lot of sharing. Simon writes a blog on Facebook every day when we are out in the boat. That blog has a loop of our YouTube video that week; then, I will be sharing the blog within the groups related to our sailing life. I share with 20 groups every day, so I annoy a lot of people.

Simon – You’ve got to be prepared for people saying you’re promoting yourself; you can’t do that and just forget about it. Just ignore it and just keep going.

Carla – No, you need to have a good relationship with the group administrators, so they like your Facebook. That’s what we mostly do; Facebook and Instagram stories. We do loads of stories every day and have stories going on Youtube, Facebook, our personal pages, IGTV. I use all the resources.

Simon – Putting in all the tags and linking it all everywhere. You can’t do it if you put out one video every couple of weeks and don’t do anything else. You got to make around two or three videos a week for YouTube to notice you.

Carla – We do about three videos a week, and we are doing our podcast now too. It is a lot of work, as you probably know.

Simon – I don’t think people appreciate how much work these influencers and content people go to to make the free content they watch.

Carla – It’s the tiny things that you have to do every single day, all the time. I probably spent about two hours just promoting the channel every day; it has to be done. It’s just very time-consuming. I love it. I like it for me; it’s a pleasure to do.

Simon – We’ve learned lots of skills through this. For example, video editing and how to talk to the camera, and social media skills.

Carla – It just proves that you can do anything you want; if you want to do it; which is why we’ll do it.

Simon – We had to get back from Spain with all our belongings. Most people would go to the international courier company to take all their belongings back to the UK, jump on the aircraft, and return. But we decided we will buy a Mercedes Sprinter van and bring it back to the UK, convert into a camper van and sell it. That’s what we’re planning on doing as soon as we’ve got it unloaded. That hopefully will pay the cost of actually coming back. You see what I mean. We should be able to sell it at a profit as it has been converted. It’s always about looking at different opportunities and different ways to make a living.

Carla – It inspires people to do things, especially at our ages, because we are not in our 20s. So people get inspired by us. We meet people who say they’re at sea because of us. They are enjoying life like us.

Simon – It is a fantastic experience. If anybody is thinking about doing this, it’s better in reality than it looks on video.

Has WIFI been an issue for you?

Carla – It was a nightmare, to be honest.

Simon – WIFI is always a big problem, in the end, we have to buy local SIM cards, the ones who have unlimited amounts of data. They may last ten days, then we have to replace them or refill them in most places, but they were pretty cheap.

Carla – In the beginning, we started going to coffee shops just to upload the videos. We realize that you spend more money on coffees than by buying a SIM card. We realized that we’re going to have to buy a SIM card and do things properly, but then you have problems with the signal as it’s not good everywhere. Sometimes we would find a beautiful bay where we would anchor, and everything is perfect.

Simon – Cuba was tough because there’s; basically, there’s very limited GSM, so you have to hotspot everywhere. You can only buy a token for an hour, so you’re forever trying to buy tokens. Everybody sits around the square of the village using the local free WIFI. This is partly because they can monitor WIFI much easier than they can monitor the mobile phone. When we went into Cuba, they did take out satellite phone off us.

How long do you usually stay in a place?

Simon – For example, we spent seven weeks in Aruba, but we only spent 24 hours in Dominica.

Carla – It depends on how we like the place. There are some boundaries because we need to worry about the weather in certain places.

Simon – You have something called the hurricane season, so you have to make sure you’re out. You have to find your way around those things as well. That meant going down to the ABC islands, and by the time we’ve done that, we then were able to go back into the box go up to Grand Cayman and Mexico.

Simon – You wouldn’t go across the Atlantic ocean any time of the year. You would typically go from east to west during December, January, and February. It would be best if you thought which months of the year would be the best.

Simon – We look for weather windows as they are the best time to sail. We have to make sure the wind is behind us because that’s an easier way to sail than going into the wind.

Carla – We have to wait for the right wind.

What tips do you have for people who are considering the yacht and sailing lifestyle?

Carla – First, start by getting some training; it’s essential.

Simon – You’ve got to have all the correct safety equipment on board. That’s probably the next most important thing because if you fall off the boat, you don’t want to in water on your own. You’ve got to have a satellite system to get the boat to come back and find you. The next thing is generating more electricity than you will need. We didn’t have enough solar panels on our boat, so we struggled with generating enough electricity.

Lars and Shelley shows how you can pursue your dreams on the road as Middle Age Travelers. In this episode, the couple from LifeJourney4Two shares how they just came to the decision to go for that nomadic travel lifestyle one afternoon. 9 months later, they sold all their stuff and went on the adventure of a lifetime. Having been traveling through Europe on a Motor Van, and exploring Africa on a Camper Van, Lars and Shelley explains the differences between the two types of vehicles, along with incredible travel stories. Get insightful tips about starting and living the van life, as well as taking a positive mindset towards life.

FOLLOW MORE PODCAST EPISODES HERE:

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Let’s start with an introduction! Tell us about you and your background story.

Shelly – I’m Shelly, and this is Lars; and we decided to start our travels in 2017. So we sat down one afternoon and thought about our hopes and dreams for the future. We started writing things down. We realized that everything on our bucket list was related to travel. So we thought, why wait? Let’s just do it. We saved like crazy for about nine months. We both gave up our jobs. I was a teacher, and Lars was a health and safety manager. And that’s where it started. We only thought we’d go for about a year because we thought funds would run out. But once we were about six, seven months into the trip, we realized the funds were going a lot further than we expected because we’re pretty frugal. We were in a motorhome, so we cooked all our food and didn’t pay for accommodation. Then we found something called Trusted House Sitters, where you can stay in people’s houses for free and look after their pets. They’re all over the world. So we could stretch it out a lot longer. Then we started the travel blog because we couldn’t find things that we wanted to know while traveling, especially as older, mature travelers. So here we are, four years on and no end in sight. Lars is working at the minute with his old company, which is perfect because of COVID. We were in Africa when we went into lockdown.

What preparations did you make in the 6 to 9 months before you started traveling?

Lars – We had to knuckle down and do some savings. So we decided not to burden yourselves with things and sold everything. We minimized what we had and got it down to two check-in bags and two hand-carry bags. So for the last four years, that’s how we’ve been traveling.

Shelly – The hardest part of the process was deciding what to get rid of.

Lars – I’m pretty attached to my chainsaw, which I couldn’t let go of, but it’s back in Australia. It’s more along the lines of the photography equipment and electronic media that we need when on the road to keep up with communications and capture and store photos; that is our precious stuff. We bought a four-wheel drive in Africa that is still out there at the moment. So after I finished work here in Norway, we will return to Africa and continue our travels.

Did you have a target amount to save before you set off on the trip?

Shelly – No, it was to save as much as we could. We don’t spend much anyway, so we cut down and sold everything. One of the hardest things was deciding what to do with jewelry I had inherited from my Mom and Nana. They held memories, but they were too small for me to wear. They were sitting in a box. So I sold them to remember them as they contributed to our trip, except for one ring that I kept.

Do you think the new generation is switching from materialistic possessions to creating memories?

Shelly – There’s not been one day where we doubted what we’ve done. People thought we were crazy at the time, and some people still do, or they think we are lucky, but there’s no luck involved. I think a lot of travel is a choice.

Lars – We’ve often said to people you don’t have to commit to a year-long journey; you can just bite off a little bit, see if it’s for you. You don’t know till you try; for us, it’s worked out great. We come to Norway every year, I do some contract work, and then we go back to whichever part of the world we’re traveling through at that time. It’s great. But you need a break from traveling; you do get travel weary. We do anyway, just being on the move all the time. You need to stay in a place and have a base for a while.

Tell us some of your house sitting experiences in France and South Africa.

Shelly – It was when we started to work on the travel blog. It had always been on my bucket list was to live in France and speak French, so that’s what we did. We lived in a beautiful Carriage House beside the Chateau. We had three beautiful cats, seven sheep, and eight chickens, which kept us busy. It was just beautiful, walking in the countryside and immersing ourselves in the small village. We got a feel of what it was like to live in France, and we got to know the different kinds of people there. It was still traveling but at a much slower pace.

Lars – We come to Norway for many months of the year, and house sitting has provided great opportunities. We spent seven months in South Africa; our home was near a desert for five months during the lockdown. The other two months were Kruger National Park.

Shelly – I think we were supposed to do six weeks in a house, then South Africa went into a massive lockdown. The people we were sitting for couldn’t get back, so we ended up staying in their house for five months. They had been in their holiday home, which is in a bush camp beside Kruger. We were able to apply for something from the police to change residents. So we swapped and went to the bush camp, which was the most extraordinary experience.

Lars – There were two of us in the camp with no one for miles, so that couldn’t have been a better situation for us.

Shelly – There were no fences, apart from elephant fences. We had hyenas coming through and came face to face with a leopard, which was pretty scary. There was a couple of rhinos wandering by; it was incredible. We realized we’re not city people. We were definitely out in the bush and nature people, and we love to photograph where we live. It makes me happy, which is the whole point.

Why did you choose a camper van lifestyle instead of another form of travel?

Lars – When we first left Australia, our first year of travel was in a motorhome/camper van. We decided to give us the flexibility to go where we wanted and when we wanted and be more careful with our money. We had the initial outlay for the cost of hiring the camper; then, we could manage all our expenses. It worked out great for us. We can stay longer in countries when we want; we have total control over what we do. It’s complete freedom. It was the first step into longer-term travel. Motorhomes are all kitted out, they’ve got showers, cooking facilities, and it’s a small home on wheels. We’ve got a taste traveling around doing our own thing.

Shelly – But Africa is different; you must stick to all the main roads in a motorhome. We knew that we wanted to go off on the tracks that aren’t so well-traveled, which is why we bought the four-wheel drive with the tent on top. You can get different types; some you have to climb outside to get into the tent on top, whereas you can get in from inside in ours. As you climb in the back, it lifts, and that makes it a little bit nicer.

How much did it cost you per day to travel in a motorhome?

Shelly – I can’t remember, I’ve broken it down, but I can’t remember off the top of my head.

Lars – We couldn’t buy, for the price you pay for a 20-year-old vehicle, we decided it wasn’t worth the money because then you have to sell it afterward. Plus, a 20-year-old vehicle has potential problems. So we rented, it was fast, free and enjoyable travel for the first year.

Shelly – I’ve previously been on a trip and bought a motor home. And it needed a new engine; it ended up costing a lot of money. We didn’t want that stress. We wanted to have a new model, which would have been expensive to buy. That’s why we decided to go that route. Halfway through, we looked at buying one when we thought we would be traveling for a lot longer, but it just was too difficult. So we bought a car and road tripped in France for 18 months as our motorhome fell through. We slept in the car. It was our motor home for a while.

Lars – In 2018, we road-tripped from Southern Norway to the fjords on the West Coast and up to the Lofoten. We spent a few weeks doing that in the great weather.

Shelly – Norway is not as expensive as everyone says. Japan is more costly, and Switzerland was outrageous. I think the accommodation here in Norway is expensive, but the food isn’t too pricey.

Lars – We have to be careful what we buy. As a traveler, you check the price out on everything and think, do we need it? In any country, you gauge the cost of things and decide if you want to buy them.

Shelly – When we were in Iceland, the food was incredibly expensive. That’s why we hired a car, and we stayed in b&bs where we always had breakfast. We’d get our breakfast and then make cheese and ham sandwiches; we ate during the day.

What are some of the challenges that you faced during your motorhome travels?

Lars – Coming from Australia, we drove a car on the left-hand side of the road. When we started traveling in Europe, we had to get used to driving on the right-hand side and in an eight-meter long camper. We had a two-hour handover from the Depo, where we picked up the motorhome, and they very quickly ran through everything. We were so used to driving on the left-hand side; we had to reboot the habits we had learned many years ago. It was a bit hectic for the first week, but it got a lot better after that.

Shelly – I thought one of the challenges would be us together in such a small space 24/7, but it wasn’t at all.

Lars – I guess because we’re out all the time unless we are writing. We don’t lounge around in the camper van or our Bush camper. We’re out doing things, and I think that’s the difference. When we come back, there are always things to do and prepare for the next day.

Shelly – I think one of the worst things is rain. I hate it when it’s raining. When we have the motorhome, it is OK because you snuggle up and have everything we need. But, with the bush camper when it’s rainy, it’s not much fun. You are outside most of the time. So we have got an awning that we put around, but still, I don’t like it when it’s raining.

Lars – One of the other challenges in Europe was every country has a different language. We tried to learn a few words, the courtesies; it always goes a long way, and we got pretty sharp with our sign language. Filling up gas bottles was difficult because each country has a different adapter to fill the portable gas bottles that you need for cooking. So that was a bit of a learning curve for us as well. In Australia, everything is standardized. In Europe, they seem to have a common standard but with their own minor individual type. So understanding all of the rules and regulations, but we didn’t find any negative rules during our travels.

Shelly – I love the van life, that freedom of being out there and part of everything. The little van we’ve got now is luxury because we don’t have the ladder on the outside, and the tent pops up. We always look at the good side of what we’ve got.

Did you find it challenging when traveling through Eastern Europe?

Shelly – I remember wild camping, possibly in Serbia. Someone in a car pulled up at about one o’clock in the morning and kept the engine running. We’re in the middle of nowhere. I did worry then, but nothing happened; they just drove away. But we found these countries the most friendly of all Europe. The people there were nice it wasn’t scary at all.

Lars – I think we go on a gut feeling when we travel. If it doesn’t feel good, we just keep moving on. It’s not as polished as some Western European countries; it doesn’t have the necessary infrastructure. But I think a lot of Eastern European countries are pretty safe to travel to these days. I don’t think there are too many issues.

Shelly – I still got a lot to write about there. But as you know, when you’re blogging, you need to SEO and how many people are likely to want to read it. People want to read about France, Portugal, and Spain, rather than Albania or Serbia, but they’re on my list. I’ve just done a schedule of which posts to write each week, and they’re still on my schedule. We had a particularly moving experience in Serbia, where we had heard about this tiny little chapel that had bones in it. We didn’t know much about it, and it looked like it was all closed up. We were just about to walk away, and I tried the handle. Then somebody opened it from the inside.

Lars – It was this Captain, well, people in military uniforms surrounded by skulls. They were having a closed ceremony, and they broke into song.

Shelly – They invited us to come in.

Lars – We thought we were intruding and should back away. But they said to come in, and then they broke into song.

Shelly – It’s a tiny place, and it echoed. Everyone was around the skulls in the middle. It was incredible to write about the many things that happened.

Lars – I don’t think you get the same populace you do in Western Europe. That, for us, is refreshing. It’s a bit more random and a bit wilder, and that’s what we like.

Shelly – We did a free walking tour in Sarajevo. The guy who did it told us all the stories about how they taught in the basement of their apartments. One of the people who lived in the apartments was a teacher, so she would take them all down and then how they’d run to get the water. I think all three of those countries had stories; they all told about the oppression they’ve been under and things they’ve learned under the communist system. It was so interesting to hear their stories.

Lars – I think it just makes you stop, listen, and absorb because it’s first-hand information.

Shelly – It’s hard to believe that kind of thing was happening in their lifetime. It’s still so fresh in so many of their memories.

Did your motorhomes ever break down?

Lars – No, nothing really serious of that nature with the van. The rental had full breakdown service, but we did not have any dramas at all. We didn’t need to put the car or van in for service or anything like that. So not many stories to tell on that front. A couple of times, we hit the crash barriers and had some panel damage.

Shelly – Luckily we had travel insurance, and our insurance company paid the excess both times.

Would you recommend people who are starting to rent a van and get proper coverage?

Lars – Definitely try a short-term trip; maybe try it for a weekend to see if it’s for you or not. Some people find they don’t like to drive around and live in that confined space. For others, it’s lovely, so have a taste of it first. Then go from there before you commit to a long trip where you find that this was not a good decision.

Shelly – We met loads of people who had these fancy motorhomes but never used their toilet. We find it interesting that people travel for months and never use their toilets and not for number two’s.

Lars – It’s not difficult to clean, you just open the lid up, pour it out, and put the lid back on. That’s the whole idea of having a motor home, to be mobile and off the grid. But many people stay in a camping site with all the facilities to choose not to have to empty it and use the onsite toilets.

Are there places whereby it’s illegal to wild camp?

Shelly – It depends; country by country is different. I think more countries are saying that wild camping is not legal. In most of Europe, we were able to wild camp. We wild camped a lot in Greece, around the Peloponnese, on beaches and the beach, and that was fantastic.

Lars – We also used an app called Camper Contact that gives information on paid campsites and places where you can wild camp, and people can provide feedback on this app. So that was a beneficial resource for us to plan where we would stay the next night. Sometimes we needed a site with power to use the facilities. But a lot of the time, we chose to go to these wild and free camping places.

Shelly – In South Africa, you’re not allowed to wild camp, but many campsites are pretty basic anyway. We have our bucket and a little stool now, rather than a toilet.

What factors do you consider when you’re determining where to go next?

Lars – It’s a quick, where do you want to go next? For example, after we finish Africa in a few years, I think we want to head to the US and Canada because there’s some incredible scenery. So we have a general view, and once we get closer, we start the planning. More time goes into the planning for us than the actual trip itself. But some people might choose to do it differently. But for me, you have to plan for everything and what might happen. That ensures you’re going to have the best time you can and without mishaps. Also, if you’re spending your money wherever you go, you want to know that you’re spending it on the right stuff. So planning is super important.

Shelly – I think in Africa, the practicalities, rather than what do we want to see? We look at what we want to see and the scenery, but we ask the locals what we should see when we get there. So a lot of the beforehand planning is talking about the practicalities. Do we need extra insurance when we get into that country? What do we need to get into that country? What will we do if we break down in that country? Because we’re not in a group of people traveling, it’s just the two of us.

Lars – So when something happens, what do we do? We ask ourselves that question all the time. So there is a lot of thinking in the background. But once we’re there, we’re there; we enjoy it. We go with our gut feeling, and if it doesn’t feel right, we’ll just keep moving. Don’t ignore your gut feeling.

I assume there’s no timeline to this?

Shelly – We didn’t want to be on a timeframe. We wanted to stop and go and not think we need to do this or that. We wanted to know that we could keep going as long or as short as we wanted to.

Lars – That’s why we talked about years because we’re going to need that amount of time not to rush it and enjoy the experience. It takes the time it takes once you own a vehicle. That’s the significant outlay financially, and then it’s just a matter of just enjoying it.

Were you able to adjust the motorhome rental as your trip progressed?

Lars – We took it initially for five months, but that was because we’re from Australia; I worked out how many kilometers we were to drive. I messed it up because I thought we’d zip around Europe in three to four months. We had no chance; what we thought was five months, we needed to double that at least.

Shelly – We also realized there were different designs of motorhomes, and we preferred a different design. We were able to swap to varying models during our trips by renting from other companies.

What are the differences between the different models?

Shelly –There were a couple of things. One, the first bed we had to climb up onto wasn’t comfy.

Lars – The first motorhome was a baseline version, and so after a while, you can work out what works for you and what doesn’t work for you. We had that vehicle for five months. The second one we took from a different provider, we had for seven months. They upgraded it for us as well, so we had a bit of luxury. I didn’t notice too much at all. Somethings you like, somethings you don’t like, and you only know that once you experience it for some time, then you know what to look for in the next camper van. You can be specific about what you want. So take the camper van for a weekend or a week to get a baseline of what will work.

What are some other things that you might find a hassle traveling in a motorhome?

Lars – It’s a different setup.

Shelly – When you’re outside under the canopy because you can’t relax in the evening, so sit inside. But you can’t do that because there’s nowhere to put your cup of tea or anything. So when you’re inside, you’re inside.

Lars – You do have the option to sit outside, but it’s just as comfortable to sit inside. But if you want to lounge around, you have to go out, put out your chairs, and it’s outside living. So, it’s not a challenge, but it’s just different. So, I guess it depends where you’d like to draw the line for your comfort. For us, it’s great fun. The big thing is we’re amongst the animals; you can’t hear the noises and sounds from inside the vehicle. You need to see, hear, smell; it all stimulates the senses.

How did you manage WiFi for work?

Shelly – WiFi was difficult in South Africa.

Lars – We had a real issue getting a SIM card; they don’t have them in Europe. When we arrived, we had no communications. We had to rely on free WiFi in cafes for the first month, Then later on in Belgium, you just show your driver’s license and passport, and we got two SIM cards in the Orange network. That was great all over Europe, but it was a real hassle for us for many months. In most countries, through Europe, they just said no, if you don’t have residency, and that was it. When traveling, you cannot be disconnected. You may need to receive security updates or quickly check something when you’re traveling, so it’s necessary. I think you’ll find most travelers will have the same story. You don’t want to spend hours uploading your photos. You just have to be careful in how you use your gigabytes.

How do you cope with seasonal weather changes?

Lars – We don’t mind. We go with the flow. We don’t drive for better weather. It’s what’s happening in that season. For example, it could be wildflowers over here; it could be a migration there. That defines how we pick where we’re going. If it’s lovely weather, it helps too, but it’s secondary. When it’s cold, we have sleeping bags and extra blankets. We are willing to make sacrifices for the experiences we’re having, and for us, it’s a small sacrifice.

Is there anything you find different as mature travelers?

Lars – We find that people seem to have more time to talk with us and vice versa. We’re not in a hurry. We find people our age, maybe a little bit older as well, tend to take the time to talk a bit more.

Shelly – The good thing is we are still pretty fit. When we traveled Europe, many of the motorhome crowd were older than us; we felt young. I think it’s great that we’re doing it now and we haven’t waited. A lot of people wait until they’ve retired and they haven’t got the energy or fitness of health to be doing what we’re doing.

Lars – When we had our campaign in Europe, we had a couple of bikes with us. We had a bike rack on the back of the camper. Instead of driving through towns or cities, we’d take our bikes. Then we didn’t have to contend with traffic and parking, and we got the fitness benefit. It gave us more options.

When you decided to make the trip, were you in a retirement mentality?

Lars – The idea was we allocated X amount of dollars for the initial travel, and we said at the end of that, we will just stop traveling, go back and do some more work. As it turned out, I work for my old company; we travel, then I fly to Norway, we have a break from the travel, build up our travel funds, and then we continue what we’re doing. So we’ve changed the initial plan, whereas we thought we would wait until our money ran out to perpetually topping up through the year. That’s enough to keep us going. So do we have an end date or year in sight? No, it’s more what do we want to see next and when do we want to see it? I’ll tell you what, traveling is a lot more fun than working.

Shelly – We weren’t thinking of retiring or thinking we would be working till 65 or 70. So we didn’t talk about it. My boys would be doing their things, and now with technology, I don’t miss them because we’ve got FaceTime, and we message on messenger. I can see all three of them at the same time. I get more out of them than I ever have done at home. I get a lot more information from them. They’re proud of what we’re doing as well. It’s role modeling what they can do at any time. Occasionally, you want to be able to hug one if they are upset; that’s the only thing I’ve missed. It’s so different nowadays.

What are some of the tips that you would give for someone looking to do van life?

Shelly – I think the main thing is to have that positive and don’t think about it too much. Just decide and go through it. I mean, what can go wrong? The worst-case scenario is you end up going home.

Lars – I think if you’re going to start it, follow some of the well-trodden roads, keep things easy. Then once you build up your confidence a bit, go down the less-traveled roads. I think you’ve got to be a bit streetwise and comfortable with what you’re doing and have a bit of confidence in yourself and what’s around you. Then, do your thing, whatever that might be.

Shelly – Life will be shit sometimes, but you get through, and you build resilience. That’s where you learn, and the same with travel, any travel. It’s never going to be roses all the time; you’re going to learn that. You’re going to learn more about yourself. You’ll learn more about what you like. For example, I’m 54 now; when we started traveling, I was 49-50, and I never realized how much I loved nature and wildlife. When you immerse yourself and you go out there, life catches you up. Follow whatever you want to do, whether it’s travel, paint, or whatever, just do it. Think about it, go out and experience lots of different things. There are never any wrong choices. There is always the potential to change.

Lars – Make a decision and do it. Then if it doesn’t work, you’ve learned that it’s not your path; choose another one. There’s a lot of planning behind the scenes; it’s not just stepping out one blindly. Make a choice. Stick with it. If it doesn’t work, close the door, then the next one opens. So opportunity after opportunity awaits.