With the travel industry expanding year over year, we sometimes forget that travel is a privilege. In this episode, Lavdi from KosovoGirlTravels shares about Kosovo and her travel adventures.  We speak about challenges of traveling with the Kosovan passport, working with the UN in South Sudan and how respecting cultures can help open your mind to other perspectives. Traveling with the Kosovo passport has its challenges but don’t let the limitations stop you from experiencing the world.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please tell us more about yourself and your background?

Not many people have met a traveler from Kosovo because it’s not easy to travel. I started my blog about four years ago, in 2017. I love traveling, and I started the travel blog to share information about Kosovo because there isn’t much online about Kosovo. And whatever there is, is misinformation or miss guiding to what traveling to Kosovo means and what to see and do. It’s not my full-time job; I have a full-time job. My blogging is just more of a hobby. I haven’t put much into my travel blog, especially during Covid times. I’ve seen so many people being productive during Covid times, but I haven’t. I kept working; I didn’t have to work from home; I kept working from my office. I haven’t kept traveling. I only did the necessary travel to come back home and visit my family and friends.

Can you tell us more about your work with the UN?

I was freelancing in Kosovo for a local NGO dealing with gender studies. Then I got this job offer with a UN mission in South Sudan. I didn’t know much about South Sudan as a country. So, I tried to find out how it is to live there because that was my concern. It was not that easy. There isn’t much about South Sudan regarding what you need there and what the conditions are like. However, I decided to take the opportunity and go there. I had been planning to travel to Africa, to the countries I can’t travel to because I have a coastal passport only, limiting my travel. This job offer coincided with my plan of traveling to the continent of Africa. It took a long time because my first email with a job offer happened in February. I had an interview in March, and then by June, I found out I had got the job, and I could move there in November. So, the whole of 2018 was working on what is happening next, the next step. When I checked for Instagram posts about young people stationed where I would be working, they were not informative. So, I didn’t get to know much. However, I decided to take the job and go. I am there serving as a UN Volunteer; I’m not a UN staff. I do not have a laissez-passer (UN passport) which would have all my issues with traveling. As UN volunteers, we are not entitled to a UN passport. My job is in administration because I have a Master’s in Public Administration, so I’m working in my field. It is interesting; it is challenging.

I stay in a village. It has a good size because I was discussing it earlier with my mom; it has so many fresh fruits and vegetables. They are bio. They don’t put any chemicals in them. So, it’s like just fresh from the branch or fresh from Mother Earth. The downsides are that there aren’t many places to go out. We do lack westernized restaurants where you can have a nice meal and good service, from my perspective. I think the way we judge something depends on our background. Sometimes we tend to be insensitive and forget about the country where we’re living. We go with our background information and our expectations. At times, I find myself being that westernized person who expects things to happen differently. I have to stop myself and realize this is another country. Some things happen here differently. It has its pros and cons.

How long do you stay in South Sudan for work?

As a rule, every six weeks you spend in the country, you are entitled to rest and recuperation, or R&R, as we call it. So, we can leave the country. It’s not mandatory; you can stay longer. But we are entitled to seven calendar days extra, in addition to annual leave. I don’t come home every time because as I am in Africa, I want to travel more on the continent itself. Also, the flight tickets are costly from here. I try to split my R&R between travel and visiting home. Nobody has their family there because the situation is not stable, so you cannot bring your family. But every six weeks that we spend in the country, we get like one week off, and then you can combine your annual leave days, and you can make it longer. I wanted to travel, and I did. I have traveled to a couple of countries in Africa. Then once Covid started last year, it changed everything. I had my Easter plan to go to Ethiopia for a week, but that plan got ruined. I got stuck in the Yambio for more than four months because I couldn’t leave the country as my airport in Pristina in Kosovo was closed. The airport in Juba, South Sudan, was closed. So, I had to stay there for four months.

What did you do there for four months?

I worked and tried to maintain mental health by just walking around the compound. Due to Covid, we had to stop all the social gatherings. It was difficult; it was stressful because all my meetings were online, and we’re about Covid. About how to protect ourselves and how to prevent Covid. The first COVID case was confirmed in South Sudan on April 5th. So that created more tension because then we were even more limited. It wasn’t easy. It was very stressful.

How is South Sudan doing in terms of COVID cases?

In terms of Covid cases, they haven’t declared that many because they are not testing. It’s mainly people who travel abroad who get tested or have been in contact with positive cases. So maybe they haven’t had many cases? And that’s a good thing there have been about 60 deaths. So it’s not even in three digits, which is very good because the medical infrastructure is not good. It could be challenging for countries like South Sudan that suffer other things, like poverty and instability, to cope with a pandemic. So it’s fortunate that they haven’t had a high number. However, they have the New South African variant of Covid already there, which is even riskier. In addition to that, there are other illnesses that South Sudan is fighting, like Ebola is still a threat, especially in the area where I live because it’s close to the border. So Ebola is a continuous fight along with malaria and typhoid; there are all kinds of things. So it’s fortunate that it’s not a country where it’s easy to visit because I think if there were more tourists, it would be even worse. After all, travelers brought Covid to different countries. I’m not blaming travelers because I’m a traveler myself.

Can you tell us more about Kosovo and its culture?

We’re in Southeast Europe. It is a small country with about 2 million citizens, that’s about 11,000 square kilometers of territory. We are similar in size to Delaware. The primary language that we speak here is Albanian because 94% of the population is from Albania. The other official language we use is Serbia because we have 4% of Serbian people. And we have different other communities here as well. So, we have lots of different cultures. We have three main big cities, starting from Pristina, the capital city, then Prizren and Peja. They are the main cities travelers visit. I will call them the three Ps. The leading museums and government buildings are in Pristina. There is lots of graffiti for those who want to see different street art. But I think what attracts the most visitors is the coffee culture and closeness that people feel here; guests are treated like kings or queens. Whenever we have a guest in our house, we want to treat them as best as possible; this is evident in the hospitality industry. Some people will go above and beyond to help you as a foreigner. Even if they don’t know or they cannot communicate in English. They will try to help, and if they cannot, they will find someone else who can. So, this hospitality makes every kind of visitor in Kosovo special. After visiting Pristina, people mainly go on to Prizren, an extensive, multicultural National City. It has a mix of different nationalities and a magnificent castle at the top of the mountain with a beautiful city view. The best time to climb up and go to the castle is sunset. The view over Prizren with all the small places and bridges is nice.

There is a lot of culture; we call the Prizren League House, where the Albanian leaders under the Ottoman Empire gathered. They decided to fight against the Ottoman Empire to free the Albanian lands. So, it also has lots of history in it. People visit Peja for the forest nature; you can go to Rugova Canyon, where you can hike, go for picnics, or do zip lining. These are like the three main cities, but there are other cities in Kosovo where you can visit castles. There is this village called Legnica in the southeast of Kosovo. You can see the church where Saint Mother Teresa, who was of Albanian origin, but her parents were Romanian, talked about her call to serve there. We don’t have a beach, but we can go to the beach in Albania, three hours away. We are suitable for skiing. If people want to go skiing, we do have some excellent resorts. I’m not a winter fan.

Why do you think Kosovo often overlooked for tourism?

There has been lots of propaganda. I’ve seen all these kinds of posts on Facebook traveler’s groups. Some people say if you go to Kosovo, you can never go to Serbia; this is false. You can go to Kosovo and Serbia. Sometimes, the only thing is if you are not an EU citizen, you don’t have an EU biometric ID. You cannot go directly to Serbia from Kosovo because they will consider it illegal entry, as the Soviet does not recognize Kosovo yet. However, you can go through Macedonia to Serbia, and you will not have any issues.

I have to start interacting with people and ask them not to spread misinformation as it’s not true. It’s not good for people to put it out there because you don’t know how many people will be influenced by that. It’s not one traveler who will skip Kosovo. It is an obstacle to having more tourists.

Another thing that stops people from coming here is that they still have that image of war. It’s been 22 years now, and there have been many changes in Kosovo, and it is stable and safe. Of course, there are cases where things happen, but they are rare and happen everywhere. Some people pass through Kosovo on day trips, but it requires time; you can easily spend a week here and still have more to see.

Are the number of travelers to Kosovo increasing?

Honestly, it has increased, compared to previous years. There is a period, as a season, when there are more travelers. We don’t have many travelers during winter because it’s cold and nobody wants to come and get stuck in their hostel. But the number is increasing, not many Asian tourists, unfortunately. It’s primarily Americans and Western Europeans. Although just before Covid, I saw a few more Japanese and Chinese tourists in groups, not independent travelers. There aren’t as many tourists as I would love to have, but the numbers are improving. You will see more during the summer period because the weather is nice. In Prizren, you cannot tell who is a tourist unless they have a backpack because it’s an international city because of all the embassies and international organizations.

In Prizren in July or August, a film festival attracts many visitors, Albanians, and foreigners. Most of the people who come to Kosovo come from the mountains in Peja. Everything is affordable; nothing is expensive. You can sleep in a hostel for 10 euros a night, in the city center of Machina. Food and beer are not expensive here, because I’ve learned to compare the prices, it’s affordable and suitable for everybody. Even backpackers can do it; budget travelers, luxury travelers, can also visit. So it offers everything, you have a variety of prices, and you can find something for all kinds of travelers. And there are places for solo travelers, groups, and family travelers. So we offer everything.

When choosing trips and countries, do you use word of mouth to help you decide where to go?

In any country, it’s possible to miss out on things. I spent three weeks in Kenya; when I left Kenya, I was scrolling down Instagram, and I noticed I had missed so much. I had done my research, and I knew there was so much to see. I find that whatever bad news is, it spreads fast. The good news, people tend not to care about good reviews anymore. If you have a negative post out there, it will spread. But if you share good things about anywhere, it will likely have limited news. But if we can influence a couple of people, those few people visit, and they tell other people. Media do not represent real feelings.

Is the travel culture strong in Kosovo?

Traveling is not common. At least one immigration officer has told me that I was the first Kosovo person they’ve seen in every country I’ve visited. Many factors impact our limited travelers. First, because Kosovo is not fully recognized yet. Some countries do not accept our passports, so we cannot travel there. We need a visa almost everywhere. Then there is the money issue because not many people can travel. It makes everything more expensive; flight tickets and affordable companies. The main problem is the visas, the lack of freedom of movement. In this case, I’m talking more about the EU countries, European Union. Although we are in Europe, geographically, we’re not part of the EU. We don’t even have visa liberalization.

To get a Schengen visa, you have to fill in all sorts of papers to submit to the Embassy. This does not apply to all embassies. Generally, you need a birth certificate, a work contract, proof that you have a job. You’re coming back then; you need your bank statement for the last month or six months and health insurance. It would help if you had some of these things anyway. Still, health insurance, flight ticket, accommodation, and some embassies want it to be non-refundable. Then, of course, you need passport photos for the visa and a three-page application form that you have to fill out. It’s costly, and you have to wait sometimes for three months to get your visa appointment. My last experience applying for a Schengen visa was a three-month wait. I scheduled my appointment in November, but my appointment wasn’t until February. They can start making you feel guilty for traveling to different countries during the process. You are under investigation, and they want to ask all kinds of questions. My last Schengen visa was issued the day before I was supposed to fly. Luckily, my visa was valid for three months, which was a good thing because embassies can only issue visas for three days.

t’s ridiculous because, in my case, I had a three-year valid visa for the US. But the EU countries give me a three-month visa to stop me from staying in their country. If I wanted to stay somewhere, I would have remained in the US. When I moved to South Sudan, I didn’t apply for another Schengen visa, but I got fed up. It was tiresome. We cannot be spontaneous. We cannot buy a last-minute plane ticket and travel without a passport or visa. Traveling should be passport-free if we can afford it travel, we should go wherever we want.

Is the immigration process a hassle?

It is, but then you tend to forget about those kinds of bad experiences in immigration. The first time when I went to Zanzibar and then on my way back, I had at least two hours at the airport. A Kenya Airways official was telling me that I needed a transit visa. I was not even leaving the airport. I was there for less than two hours. They kept me for two hours, going back and forth between the check-in counter and Kenya Airways office. I showed them the Kenyan government’s official website saying that no nationality needed a transit visa for up to 72 hours if you’re staying at the airport. It took them at least two hours to figure out that it was okay. The latest time I had this issue entering Zimbabwe, I had a visa issued by their system. I still couldn’t enter Zimbabwe because they didn’t recognize Kosovo. I was trapped between the Zambia and Zimbabwe border for six hours. Then, in the end, I had to pay for another visa and enter Zambia again. Every time I go through immigration that has not seen many Kosovo citizens, it takes at least five or 10 minutes for them to go through my passport and check to see, what is this?

What got you interested in traveling?

I think there are probably a couple of factors. I loved to read; I still love reading, and reading brings you to different cultures in different places. I had my first trip when I was six years old to Belgrade, Serbia. I still consider it as out of the country, although at the time, Serbia occupied us. But that was my first trip outside of Kosovo. I don’t remember much, but I remember how I felt seeing something different. Then fast forward, I had my first flight to Nice in France. I went to this high school festival. There were people from all kinds of cultures, countries, and continents; it was a good thing to hang out, dance, eat and talk. My work meant traveling, and I get hooked. The more you travel, the more you understand that you meet people who have traveled to other countries you haven’t visited. Then, they start talking to you about that. I spent two years doing my Master’s in Chicago; I traveled a lot more when I was there. I was always thinking about the country I could go to next. So, I guess this triggered my traveling, even more, that freedom of traveling. I’m intrigued by places that lots of people do not think of. The more you travel, the more you get into that world of travelers and traveling, the more you see. Maybe it’s forbidden fruit for all the restrictions and obstacles; it makes it even more challenging; I like the challenge. It’s always good to visit something new and experience something different.

How has traveling changed your perspective of the world?

I think traveling changes you and you have to be an open-minded person to travel. It’s like the chicken and the egg story. I don’t know which one is first. Do you have to be open-minded and then travel? Or do you become open-minded while traveling? I think it has made me understand that we the same; we are all people, we are all faced with the same issues. We all face the same problems, like insecurity about our future, and lately, it has become very superficial. It’s not about close connections any more. Most people don’t get to know someone; it’s all about Instagram and all about like and that perfect shot. I don’t care a lot; if you have gone through my feed, it’s mainly about nature. Travel has given me another perspective. Coming from Kosovo, we have gone through a terrible war and post-war period and grew up with the country’s development into independence; of course, it gives you a different perspective. And Kosovo is still developing. I have had many obstacles, lots of things to go through as a child, teenager, and adult. I see it as having made me stronger to face any difficulty. Then going from Kosovo to the US, where everything is so different, it’s a different experience because you have to start adjusting.

You begin to know how things function and what part of your society you’re in. My two priorities were to finish my Master’s and travel to as many US states as possible. But of course, it also gave me the chance to make friends. I made lots of friends from different nationalities, like France, China, India, Bangladesh, and Mexicans. Once you start getting to know people personally, you also begin to understand more. We are all prejudiced because I think the main problem is not knowing others’ priorities and challenges. If you take the time to go and see other places, you can get to know things. When you go there and try to mold into the local’s experiences, then, of course, you will start to understand more.

I also travel through public transport because I wanted to see how others travel. It was tiresome and very annoying, to be honest. It gives you experiences and knowledge. It also shows you what others think of foreigners. Now living in South Sudan is a different experience again. I’m hoping to live somewhere in Asia or Latin America next.

What tips do you have for other Kosovans who want to travel the world?

Firstly, when you travel, your passport is weak and has lots of limitations because so many countries won’t accept us. Secondly, travel doesn’t have to be expensive. You can still travel on a budget because there are so many options to travel with less money. There are so many Facebook groups, especially women, where other women offer accommodation to you. You don’t have to go and spend loads of money. Kosovo citizens cannot travel to EU countries. They can travel to Asian or African countries; they are open and accepting. Travel where you can there, are so many beautiful countries out there.

Can you still travel around the world when you have kids? Astrid & Clint certainly prove it to be so. In this episode, the couple behind The Wandering Daughter shares their family travel adventures and their journey of discovery to a nomadic lifestyle . We speak about effective tips and tricks when traveling with kids, as well as how learning is so much more than just academics when the world is your classroom. 

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Please introduce yourselves and tell us about your family background?

A: I’m Astrid, and I’m the writer behind the Wandering Daughter. We have been traveling as a family for about two and a half, almost three years since 2018. We traveled around Mexico; we started traveling around the United States. Then we moved to Mexico, France, Italy, Costa 8Rica, Indonesia, the Philippines, Singapore, and Vietnam. And now we’re back here in Mexico. We have two kids who are ten and seven, and we homeschool them while we’re traveling.

C: I’m Clint. The other half, the technical half. We both work full time. That’s how we sustain our travels.

A: We have a game company now to which we started during the pandemic.

What led you guys to start the journey in 2018?

C: We’ve always had wanderlust. Astrid spent time in the Peace Corps and lived in Africa for a couple of years. I’ve done a tonne of road tripping around the US. So I think we always had wanderlust. We had an idea of a five-year plan to go live somewhere else or do a little bit of travel. We bought a house in 2016, and when we bought the house, we thought in five years maybe we’d travel, and we’d put it off and think about going another time. There was a conference in Canada that Asterid came across, called the Family Adventure Summit. It was the first iteration of this conference. It was five hours away from Seattle, where our home was. We decided to go there over the weekend and check it out and hopefully meet some people, but we had no expectations other than that. We went to that conference and talked to a ton of people about all the logistics required to travel full time. We both weren’t working remotely at the time. Our kids were in public school. We just talked to many people, and then the five-hour drive home back to Seattle, we decided we could do it. So seven months later, nine months later, we had rented out our house, and we were jumping in the car to start our trip.

A: I think what was unique about the conference was I wouldn’t even say it was a conference. It’s just like a gathering of families that travel, and a lot of those families travel full time. We talked to people who were already doing what we wanted to do and got a better idea of what life was like. That helped inspire us to get our act together and do this instead of just talking about it.

C: We just needed information on how to get started. We had questions that were hard to post on Google. Having actual people there that we could talk to was all we needed.

Do you both still work full-time online remotely?

A: Yeah, we both work online. For a while, I was doing freelance writing. Then, last year, I started a full-time job working for a nonprofit organization. The whole time we’ve been traveling, Clint has been working remotely for a company based in Seattle.

C: I’ve been working full time, the whole time. When I started, I worked remotely for most of the week anyway. I would work from home and come to the office a couple of days a week. So four or five months after that conference, I approached my employer and asked them. I had to talk to managers and figure out logistics. That’s what I’ve been doing for the last two and a half years we’ve been traveling.

A: The blog is more of a passion project for me. And then this new company is also a passion project.

Does being a developer make working remotely easy?

C: It wasn’t hard at all. Like I said, I was already working most of the week remotely and just come to the office a couple of days a week. The only time it became hard is when we were in Asia; we were literally on the opposite side of the world of my company. So I had to work late into the night or work early in the morning to cover the hours due to the timezone difference. But other than that, it’s been pretty easy to maintain office relationships.

Astrid, did you change jobs when you switched to traveling?

A: I ended up leaving my job in Seattle to travel. And part of that was HR logistics that I didn’t want to deal with. Another reason was that we weren’t sure how the travel would happen or how the travel lifestyle would be. We decided it might be a little bit easier to transition if one of us was the stay-at-home parent and focus on homeschooling, which helped a lot. The kids transitioning from being in a traditional school to homeschooling was rough. The first year having one of us being able to focus our attention on that was helpful. Now that we’re both working full time, we’ve been able to split the homeschooling responsibilities between us. The kids are now used to it, and they can do a lot more independent study, too. So it’s a different homeschooling dynamic or learning dynamic, but it feels like it’s more balanced.

Do you think kids that travel grow up to be more independent?

C: Yeah, it seems like it. Some of the parents we’ve talked to have grown kids with this independent spirit. I don’t know if part of that comes from the parents because the parents tend to be that way. But then the lifestyle is transient. It comes with its drawbacks, but it comes with some benefits. I think one of those benefits is the independent spirit.

How is the family dynamic when traveling?

A: We try to be conscious about not fitting into typical gender roles. Clint likes to cook; it’s not just the mom. We try and share the responsibilities between the two of us. That kind of modeling behavior rubs off on the kids to see that parents can fill different families’ roles.

C: When we first started traveling because Astrid quit her job, we did kind of fall into those very typical gender patterns, where Astrid was with the kids all day and wasn’t working. I was working all the time to bring in the income. I think we didn’t like that because I enjoy spending time with the kids. I like hanging out, cooking, doing other things. I didn’t like being the sole breadwinner. So I think once we returned to our usual pattern, it was helpful to reset some of the stresses and things we were going through.

A: As part of the family dynamic, after being with each other 24/7, you realize you need to communicate your needs and feelings. Listening to what somebody is trying to convey is essential. I feel like as a family, we’ve learned to understand what the things that make each other tick are? Or what are the things that make each other happy? And what coping skills can help members of the family having a hard time.

C: It’s all the stuff you usually do in a family; it’s just when you’re traveling, and you’re pretty isolated. Many people have this experience now because of the pandemic and being inside with their family for long periods. When you start traveling, it’s just you and your family for long periods. So you do those things that you can focus on, but you can also have distractions when you’re in a traditional lifestyle. It’s like you have school and work, and then you have extracurricular activities; all that stuff doesn’t exist when you’re traveling. So you’re forced to resolve arguments; you can’t linger too long. That negative energy in the house has to be managed; otherwise, it makes everything rough. We also recognize we all have cycles, too. We all have moments during the month or during a specific stay where we’re feeling low or feeling high. So it’s also trying to recognize those.

What are the main challenges when traveling with kids?

A: One of the things that we’ve learned to do is not to over-schedule ourselves. I think it’s an instinct when you get to a new place to see as much as you can because who knows when we’re going to be here next. We have to experience it to the most, and do everything and try everything and see everything. But when you’re with kids, they get tired when you are on the go. So the challenge for us was balance. We were able to experience a place and maintain a slower pace so that it didn’t overwhelm or make us feel over-exhausted because then that would add to the stress of day-to-day family life. I think if everyone is tired, we’re not having fun. We do one thing a day; instead of seeing multiple things and squeezing it all in. We’re okay with that because it helps keep us from feeling exhausted.

C: The first time we realized that was important, we were in Mexico two years ago. It was a gorgeous, sunny day; we were a 20-minute walk from the beach, and we were just tired. We stayed in the apartment all day, and we needed that downtime. One of the classic challenges most families we talk to have is the socialization aspect, not just for the kids but also for adults. It’s just your family for long periods. We try to be intentional about planning to go places throughout the year that other people are going to. We go long periods where it’s just our family. But then when we have moments of socialization, it’s very intense for two weeks or a month, where it’s lots of meetups, lots of conversation, lots of hanging out because generally, those families are in the same boat. So it’s trying to get as much together time as you can in that short amount of time before you go your separate ways.

Did you find building relationships while traveling difficult?

C: Luckily, many of the families we meet tend to be doing the same lifestyle, too. So I guess one of the challenges is we don’t get to meet as many local families as we would like. I think that’s just part of the transient nature of this lifestyle. So I think that’s one drawback. If you want to say there’s a silver lining to that, you could say we meet people in the same lifestyle as us. The way we help our kids similar to the ways they help theirs. For example, Facebook Messenger for kids is a common way most families communicate; we all have accounts. Then it’s a matter of exchanging handles, and that’s how you share information. The kids use Facebook Messenger for kids and Minecraft accounts. These are how they have social connections because they can chat.

A: They like to go into each other’s servers on Minecraft and play together.

C: That happens way more than anything like zoom calls or anything like that. I think those two avenues tend to be the most, into each other’s servers and play together.

A: I would add Roblox. It’s another game they use. They play games together on their devices and connect with their friends in another country and other time zones. That’s been helpful. As Clint alluded to earlier, having planned meetups with other families is helpful, too, because the kids can look forward to that. Saying goodbye to our friends is hard to do, but we know it’s not forever.

C: One of the things that many world schooling families or traveling families find hard is saying goodbye. We say see you later or something like that. We often see them later. That’s how we stay in touch with people.

Travelling for us is interesting because we can plan to go somewhere. If a family is somewhere else or haven’t seen friends of ours in a long time that live in a different part of the world in the United States, we can plan to go there and stay there for a bit to see them. We can visit and help them at home; we can stay near them or with them for a month. It’s not just the traveling that has been nice. It’s the flexibility of being wherever we need to be. It’s been nice.

Does the travel mindset change when traveling with kids?

C: Here in America, for example, we end up revisiting taco stands. It’s our favorite comfort, and we visit multiple times. Whereas before, you do it once because that’s all the time you have. Then you move onto something else, then check it off a list. For us, it’s more about what are the things we enjoy. We’ll explore deep and find more things to enjoy, but there’s no pressing idea to try to pack in everything at once.

A: I would say one of the other objectives or benefits for us as a family is we travel slowly. We experience the culture on a deeper level instead of just the superficial level. We can visit markets, see how local people interact, and buy their everyday produce. Or we can go to taco stands and taste different dishes. Otherwise, we would be there for one day and do a food tour of the highlights.

C: We get to relax and experience the culture a little more instead of just trying to get the highlights. It’s the repetition. It’s about being able to go there once or twice a week at least and buy your groceries there. Or it’s going to the same places where locals go after work and eat dinner. It’s about trying to live in an area rather than just visiting it.

A: We see the differences in the places in those day-to-day things. One of the things we like to do is take public transportation, although we don’t do it as much right now because of the pandemic. But in regular times, if we’re in a city, we’d get public transportation to different places. You could get lost; you could end up on the wrong bus or find somewhere different. We like taking the subway in New York or jeepneys in the Philippines or Mexico City. If you’re here for a more extended period, and you get lost, it’s not that big of a deal, as opposed to if you get lost trying to get somewhere because you have to take a tour.

What considerations do you guys have when choosing your next destination?

A: I think it depends on whether somebody in the family wants to go there. Before our first trip, we let the kids choose three places they wanted to visit before traveling. Each of the kids had three countries, and we tried to see all of those places. But there was one country that we didn’t end up going to, so we replaced it with Vietnam. That was for my daughter because she wanted to go to China, we convinced her to do Vietnam instead. It ended up being a good thing because we all ended up liking that country. If somebody in the family wants to go or somebody that we know that lives in that country, then that would motivate us to go.

C: So we’ve been to Mexico before, and we spent six months there. We’re back here for another six months, and we’re planning on coming again next year for another six months. We like Mexico because we like the culture. There are certain things that we enjoy now. We’ve recognized the specific size of the cities that we want. We realize we like being somewhere that’s warm. There are several things that we check off the list. We’re starting to pick up Spanish more, so that’s starting to play into some choices. Should we go to Spanish-speaking countries so that we can keep practicing Spanish? It ebbs and flows as far as how we choose destinations. Quite honestly, part of it now is where we can visit? What countries are open because of the pandemic? What is the visa situation? Also, where can we find reliable internet? Or at least backup internet.

Do you visit countries where the daily environment is more chaotic?

A: We’ve been to India with our kids.

C: We’ve been to India, we’ve been to Vietnam. We’ve been to Jakarta, Indonesia, which is also really crazy. We also love big cities, and big cities tend to be crazy, especially in Asian cities.

A: I would we are a bit more mindful of safety considerations. Just because we have kids with us, but it wouldn’t cross a destination off of our list.

C: Our only consideration would be if there were legitimate safety concerns, things that are well-vetted or well stated that you are at risk by visiting. It’s not that we’re risk-averse, but that is the one consideration. Suppose a country is going through any civil dispute or political turmoil that plays into whether we go there. So we hope to visit some of those countries someday, but right now, they’re just not on my list.

What are some good strategies to practice when traveling with kids?

A: One that we use when taking public transportation is a plan for if we get separated. If we get separated on the bus, the kids know to get off at the next stop, and then we’ll take the next bus and find them. They learn to stay where they are. This happened to us in Rome, Italy; we were waiting at this busy bus stop, the bus arrives, and we all get on the bus. I looked down, and I couldn’t find our son. He was all by himself. He was and by himself at a bus stop in Rome. We’re trying to tell the bus driver to stop. Finally, the bus stopped about a block away, and we ran back to the bus stop. He was standing there crying, and a woman was trying to comfort him. It was one of the scariest moments in our lives. We lost our kid. So that’s one thing we make sure the kids understand. What is the protocol if we get separated?

C: I think the other thing is we’re huge on is flying under the radar and not making a spectacle of ourselves. I think we try to convey that to the kids as well. Even in the United States, when we’re back home, you go with the flow when you’re in a crowd. We like that mentality, so we try to keep a low profile.

A: That’s also prevention. We carry lots of expensive machinery and devices, so we try not to flash it around. During one trip we got a bag stolen. So that’s one thing that we try and teach our kids to like look after your stuff because we don’t want to be targeted.

C: Other than that, there’s physical safety. Make sure you are all hydrated and take lots of breaks. The one thing we found traveling around is that it’s not much different from when you live in other cities in the US; we have the same protocols to make sure that we’re safe.

A: Our friend suggested that we have a safe word for the kids, and only our family knows. If we’re not there for some reason and send somebody to pick up the kids, we tell them the secret word. So the kids know it’s okay to go with them. If not, then they stay right there. Fortunately, we’ve never been in a situation where someone has tried to take one of our kids. So that’s good. I would say another thing, and this is not so much safety. But show respect, cultural respect. Whenever you get to a new place, learn how to say basic phrases like hello, thank you, please, goodbye. Don’t be the type of traveler that thinks everybody should speak English. We try and impress that on to our kids too. That’s hopefully a habit that they’ll absorb so that when they’re grownups and traveling on their own, that’s their default behavior.

C: Sometimes, that’s easier said than done. But we make an effort in every country we visit. Sometimes the languages are a little bit harder for us to try. But we make an effort.

What is your mindset with regards to academics and world schooling?

A: Some people consider world schooling separate from homeschooling. You don’t even actually have to be traveling to be world schooling. It’s more of a mindset than a learning philosophy because it’s identifying experiences in the world that can be educational. You could do that even when you’re at home. So when it comes to us teaching our kids, there are specific topics and subjects that we do because that’s just a fundamental learning skill. We do mathematics, and it’s not influenced by where we are.

C: Sometimes, I do mathematics in Spanish. Sometimes, we’ll do math lessons, where we practice addition, subtraction, and multiplication, but we do it in Spanish.

A: Or something like spelling, we try and incorporate our location into the learning. If it’s a writing activity, I’ll have the kids write about their experiences while traveling. If it’s reading, we can read stories from that culture. If it’s a science activity, we use or experience for learning. When we went swimming with whale sharks, we learned about that animal and its life cycle. Our travel experiences give inspiration for organizing the learning activities we do for school.

As parents, do you have to plan for these learning experiences consciously, or does it come naturally?

A: I think we spent a little more time planning the activities in the beginning. But now that we’ve been doing it for over two years, almost three years now, it’s more natural. We look up some YouTube videos about our topics and research information from books.

C: I think it is a learned behavior. I think the comfort level of where we are is pretty standard among homeschoolers. World schooling is putting a world context on top of homeschooling. Everything is a teaching moment. So I think you just get good at doing that. We used to teach in daycare many years ago, and I think that’s where we started. You always had to find teaching moments or ways to engage kids. So t’s just learned behavior. It takes a little practice at first, but it does become intuition at a certain point.

Does digital content play a significant role in education while traveling?

C: iPads are essentially their number one tool, just like our laptops are our number one tool. They get entertainment through them, but they also do lots of their lessons. They draw, read, and do languages. That’s where their socialization happens sometimes. That is our number one investment for them, as far as material things. It’s become critical because we can’t carry books. There’s no room to take anything like that.

A: We have hundreds of ebooks, we’ll check out ebooks, and then they can read that, or sometimes if it’s not available, we’ll buy the book on Amazon. They go through books so fast they can read for hours. The kids mainly read graphic novels right now.

Where do you guys get inspiration from for your card game? And tell us more about what the card game is?

A: We have a card game called ‘Stack the Scoops,’ and it’s an ice cream-themed matching card game, where players have to build sets of cards. They collect points, and the winner is whoever has the most points at the end of the round. But then you can get double or triple scoop cards, which will double or triple your score. There’s a math element to the game because the kids can practice addition. Then there is simple multiplication, two times tables, and three times tables. It’s an excellent educational game, but it’s also fun for families with kids of all ages.

C: We love card games. Even before we started traveling, that was one of our things. We love playing card games. And I used to be a graphic designer before I was a programmer, so I have years of experience as a corporate graphic designer. So just for fun, I liked to redesign things that exist. So I redesigned a card game, one of my favorite card games, and we had it printed for our use. So we were in Vietnam playing that game.

A: And during the pandemic when it started, we weren’t able to leave the country yet.

C: I think they had just locked down the cities. We weren’t able to do lots of things, so we played card games. Then I commented on designing another card game or redesign another card game. I asked my daughter what’s ideas she had, and so we started brainstorming. Then we told Astrid about it later that night. And we started designing it and build it. The next day, we cut out a ton of paper, and everyone in the family just drew a card and made the deck. And we played it several times, just with those cutout pieces of paper. By the end of the next week, I had designed a whole deck, and we had called our lawyer to start an LLC.

A: Yeah, we decided to go ahead and make it into a product on Amazon, wanting to get into the Amazon product sales. Some people will buy whatever cheap product that seems interesting to them, and they’ll sell that on Amazon. We wanted something where we felt we were connected to it more. So this game ended up being an excellent catalyst to get into Amazon.

C: Amazon has been our business school; the last year has been our business school. We were still in Vietnam. We had to wait until we came back to the United States to get them printed and shipped. We just ordered and did a beta run, where we sent it out to some friends and family to try it. We made some changes, and then we ordered a batch, and we’ve been selling since July last year.

A: We just sold our 500th game this week. We’ve had awards from different organizations that rate the game. So we’re excited. What was nice was our kids were involved in it too. Our daughter helped design the game, and my son provided feedback for the game. He was the inspiration for the name, and he gave us inspiration for things. It feels like a family business, and the kids get to see all of the ins and outs of what we’re doing. They feel pride in the awards that we get and the sales.

Talk to us a bit about the blog? It sounds like there’s an interesting story behind it.

A: I started the blog after returning from the Peace Corps. So right after college or my undergrad, I decided to join the Peace Corps. I went to West Africa into Togo, and I lived there for two years. I was blogging there; I kept like an online journal about my experiences. When I came back, my mom called me her wandering daughter. I thought it was a good name for a blog. So I started a new one on Blogspot, and I became a blogger. I had it on for a while, and only my Mom and Clint read it. Then, once we had kids and started traveling, I decided to turn it into a travel blog. That was around 2014, and then we switched it on to WordPress and made it into a more robust blog focused on family travel content. I feel like it’s a good resource for families interested in the kind of lifestyle we have and how to travel and incorporate learning into their travel.

C: It’s worth it for the family itineraries. She gets a lot of traffic through family itineraries, people using her blog to figure out what to do with kids in a particular city.

A: The benefit of us being in cities for at least a month is that I know 20 different things to do that I can list on my blog instead of five things to do. I’ve had friends, and readers send me messages thanking me for my blog posts as they found them so helpful. I think the blog is a resource for families, whether they want to explore a city or whether they want to make the travel experiences a little more educational.

C: There are many ex-pat and nomadic articles around for what to do in Morocco. But there are very few family articles on what to do in that city. Some of the places that we stay are not substantial tourist destinations for families anyway, so it’s just another exciting writing niche.

Are there other income streams that you guys are looking into?

A: I think one of the things that we’ve learned, and lots of other families will probably echo this, is to have a diverse source of income. You can’t rely on one source. Now we both have full-time jobs. But no one knows if they have job security. In the future, we’d love to have this Amazon business. We are looking into potentially more property rentals. But that’s further on down the line because we have our house in Seattle that we have for rent. We’ve been talking to lots of families who have some sort of real estate investment, whether it’s just other homes that they rent out commercial investment. So that’s something that is on our radar; we just haven’t made that leap yet. We’re still in the learning phase of that. We’re doing the Amazon stuff and eCommerce in general and product development.

C: I think that’s our focus right now. Beyond working full time, I tried doing freelance more at scale and supporting myself that way. I realized I didn’t have the mentality for that kind of thing. So I enjoy working full time for a company. It’s nice to work on this product because it’s completely different than what I do in my day job. It’s an excellent outlet, and we have a passion for learning about product development. It doesn’t feel like it’s a continuation of my work during the day, so I enjoy that aspect. It’s funny because it’s one of the conversations we always have with many people. I love talking to other families about what they do for work or what they do for income because it’s diverse as far as what people do. We know photographers; we know podcasters; we know bloggers; we know all sorts of people that do all kinds of things.

A: I think every family is different, too. It’s not always that they’re traveling and supporting themselves while they travel. Sometimes there’ll be families that work intensively for a short period, and then they take off and travel for a short period, and then they come back, and then they work again. They rely on miles and points to travel, so I feel like that’s a job in itself. C: We also know families were half the family travel and the other half stay back and work while the others travel.

What advice do you have for families are looking to go into this lifestyle?

C: I would say there are many groups out there and tons of Facebook groups of people. There are Nomad Facebook groups, there are ex-pat Facebook groups, and there are families that are doing that. So there’s a lot it’s easy to find people. There are also world schooling groups because that methodology is growing in popularity; there are many world school blogs and world schooling groups on Facebook. That’s how we started. My advice would be to find people and organize a meetup. See if there are any world schools in your area. Even during the pandemic, you could do a virtual unit. Or try to organize a zoom call or, after the pandemic, a meetup. If any world schools are in your area, have conversations with them. Ask them any questions you have, or organize a mastermind session. All it is is information. It’s the same with starting businesses. You can’t start a business unless you have information on what are the things you need to get started. It’s just a matter of having that information and seeing how it applies to your situation.

A: Also, take time to think about why you want to do this? Do you want to travel because you’re curious about the world or want to give your kids the type of experience? Or is there something that you feel is missing in your family dynamics, and you think travel would fill that void? Sometimes not having a good understanding of why you’re doing it in the first place will make those challenging times that you face a lot more complicated. So if why you are doing it when you face more difficult times, then you can remember why we’re doing this? Remember what the benefits are?

C: I also think it’s healthy to have a four-hour workweek. But imagine what your worst scenario is. Everyone knows worst-case scenarios. But imagine, you go, and you don’t like it, or you start to run out of money. Chances are most people have some support system to come back to, or they have a plan D. Have that in your mind, so you know what that is. And then the last thing for me, I think, is to start small. We began by road tripping around the US, and then we went to Mexico. Then we just kept moving time zones away from the US. But we did it in an iterative style instead of just jumping to Asia, for example, from the United States. So start small. Start in your comfort zone and extend to the edge of it and keep extending. Pretty soon, you’ll realize that your comfort zone is essentially nonexistent.

Your perspectives change when you are traveling alone, with a companion or as a family. In this episode, digital nomad mon – Julia shares how she transited from a typical office life to traveling long term and now raising a nomadic family. We speak about mindset changes to take the leap into a nomadic life, how regret is the worst feeling, and tips on managing family time with traveling and business. 

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Hi Julia! Let’s start with an introduction of yourself and story.

I have to go back to 2011 when I started the travel thing. I quit my job in Germany, where I’m originally from, and I decided I wanted to have a break. I was working a lot, I had an exciting job in Munich for a communications agency, and every day was different. I had a lot of events to run and organize. I was living for my job; there came the point when I realized it wasn’t as fulfilling as I thought it would be. I noticed that I needed something to change. I wasn’t sure what it was. But a friend of mine suggested I take a break and go traveling for a while; she had just come back from a year in Mexico. She said it was the best decision she’d made, and she gained a different perspective on her life and what she wanted to do. I thought it was crazy, and who would like to hire me if I go on a three to six-month trip. Back then, I had a completely different mindset. I thought my CV looked perfect; I’d been to university and had all the necessary career steps to get me where I was at that moment. But for some reason, it still resonated with me, and this nagging voice was there. It didn’t take me long because I was exhausted. I was sick for a few weeks, and I couldn’t get rid of a cough. My body was sending me signals, and something had to change; maybe my friend was right, and I should go on a break. So funnily enough, even though I thought it was only a break, I sold everything. I needed to get rid of all this stuff because I didn’t want to rent out my apartment; I didn’t want to move my things to a place and pay monthly for storage. So I sold everything and the items that I couldn’t sell, I was lucky enough to put up my parent’s basement, and it’s still there. So I got an open ticket around the world that let me travel in one direction. All I needed to do was pick a location with flexible dates. It was dangerous because it meant that every time I got to a place, I could make up my mind again and extend my stay there, which I did every time.

I started in India; I went to Singapore and all those Southeast Asian countries, and I went to Australia, New Zealand, South America, then I was supposed to go home. But by the time I got to Bali, I realized that I planned out this timeframe that didn’t work. I was already three months in, and I hadn’t even done half of my route. So, I had to readjust my plans. So the three months turned into one year, and by the end of the first year, I was traveling through Chile, and I met my partner, who’s the dad of my children, in the middle of the Atacama Desert. We met, we fell in love, and this was another motivation for me to make it work because, by the end of the first year, I realized I don’t want to go back to Germany. I had met many inspirational people on the way; I saw different lifestyles. I realized it’s not only in your home country where you can make money; there are different types. I mean, I had heard that before and seen other stories, but it dawned on me when I was traveling; this brainwashing machinery back home where they always tell you, you have to follow a particular path is bullshit. I was like literally waking up. I took my life into my hands and did whatever I wanted to do and not what other people said. It’s a process with baby steps that led me to these decisions and the mindset I have today. I took a few different choices, and I canceled my return ticket to Germany; I decided to stay with a guy and try to find out if my feelings were more profound or just a fling. We’re still together after nearly ten years, so it was a good decision. We both had the travel bug, and we talked nonstop about how awesome traveling is and how awesome it is to see the world. He was actually on his way to Brazil back then. He had quit his job due to an economic crisis in his country. So we were both in that stage where we said something new has to come, we will use traveling as a channel of finding what we want in life. It was luck that we both had the same mindset. I don’t think it was a coincidence, but you can use the word coincidence or perfect timing. Then we started traveling together.

When you met your husband, was he traveling for a vacation or long-term travel?

It was a little bit different for him. He quit his job, but he always wanted to go to Brazil, so he took the opportunity to travel to his neighboring countries. Then he wanted to go back to his country and get a new job in his engineering industry. He’d studied for a long time and wanted his career to continue. But at the same time, he wasn’t happy with it, he had done everything he was supposed to do for his career, but it wasn’t fulfilling him. We were heading from South America to Asia, and my crazy idea was to get our diving instructor licenses and make a living from teaching diving. When we were in Thailand, someone offered him a job back in Chile. We were also a relatively new couple, and we weren’t sure that we would spend our lives together at that point. It was a very uncertain stage, and it took him some time to decide against the job because this job meant security and following an everyday life as everyone else does. Then there was little me telling him, what if we find something else to make this work, and what if we stay together and do this on our terms? I was persistent in convincing him that there was more to life; he always says it’s my fault that we’re doing this.

During this time, what were you guys doing for income? Or were you traveling using savings?

I had a hard time convincing him because it was my word against his, lowering funds. Luckily, a few days later, we met a Chilean guy in Bangkok on vacation. He lived in Australia and told us Australia was amazing. You can make money so easily as there were jobs for everyone. He said his salary was triple as much as in Chile, and you can save.

It’s a no-brainer when you are under 30 and have this opportunity. In my case, I got a working holiday visa for one year, and he had to get a student visa, but it wasn’t hard. Both visas allowed us to work there, make money and save some money as well; it meant we had more time to think about what we’re going to do next. We got there and worked in random backpacking jobs like waiting in restaurants, working in a hotel, being a concierge, and parking cars; for me, it was fun because I had never done that before. I got approached by former clients from the agency that I used to work in, and they asked me if I would work on their projects remotely.  That’s when it clicked for me because I realized that I could make money in my profession and not have to slave away parking cars doing something I didn’t want to do for the rest of my life. Then I realized that I had to do something else and scale the work. If I could do that for them, I could do it for other people. One thing led to another; I met people in Australia who knew about my professional background, who needed help with translating texts. I did many different things, not only marketing, PR, and social media. I was freelancing in copywriting, translating, doing transcripts for an app; it helped me understand that there are different options out there that could be done online and make money. It helped both of us get rid of that thought that you could only make money working in an office or your home country. That was the breakthrough for our money mindsets.

What was your mindset like when leaving your corporate job for odd jobs?

Looking back, I love my family and friends who called me out and said I was crazy. They were supportive and always thought she’ll be back eventually. Everyone knew that this was only a faze. It was refreshing for me; it helped me get clearance on what I wanted, as I was so close to burnout. I had to put a lot of energy into work back in Germany. Doing things that didn’t require as much energy but still got me money was a simple way of just surviving and figuring out what I wanted. Of course, I wouldn’t say copy my example.

You can, and it could lead you somewhere, but that is why today I’m a coach and help people set up an online business correctly. It’s always a nice anecdote, and it helps people understand how vital mindset is. It is one of the first modules that I always go through when I start coaching. I can tell and give all the advice out there, but no plan is good enough if you’re not in the right mindset. You must believe in it and realize you are the one who will make it happen. If you see someone else who has done it, this is inspirational motivation. If she can do it, I can do it too, because I want to stress that I know I’m not special. All the people I’ve met have motivations and skills that they have picked out and want to focus on; this is key. They’re unique people like you and me. I think everyone can try out this lifestyle at least once in their life; I’m on a mission.

I have a podcast, and every time I finish the episode by saying my mission is accomplished if you guys try it out once. Your old life is always there waiting for you. It will always be there; you can always go back. The number one obstacle or fear that most people have in the beginning is, what if I go and when I come back, will anyone ever hire me. That’s bullshit, especially nowadays, in times like Covid. Employers are looking for more open-minded people that can organize their day independently. Once you taste this freedom, I highly doubt you will want to go back. I’d say it’s dangerous.

Even if the only thing you take away from your trip is that at least you had the guts to try it out. I think it’s the worst thing to get to the end of your life and think I wish I had done that. I think that would be one of the worst feelings to have. So, try it out; simply go for it.

Building relationships has always been a challenge for digital nomads, what’s your secret?

Well, I mean, I don’t know why we crossed paths, but the moment I saw him, I knew he was the one. It was bizarre, and it sounds cheesy; I’m not making this up. I remember looking at him and thinking if I talk to him, I might like him. Then we ended up talking by accident, and one thing led to another. We had exchanged numbers and went our separate ways. But after a few weeks apart, we couldn’t stop thinking about each other. It was weird. We talked about it, and we were both in the same stage of our lives. I’m sure it wouldn’t have worked if he was in a corporate job and I was working nine to five in an office job. But because we both wanted to travel, we both were open to whatever happened. We were both open to a new relationship. We both had past partners, but we were ready for something new; it was perfect timing. He is a great guy, one of the best. I consider myself lucky, really lucky. At the same time, we have a very intense relationship because we were always together. We didn’t have a dating phase because we immediately moved in together or lived in the same hostel. So there wasn’t space for us to let the relationship grow. Then there were times of crisis, we thought about separating, we were fighting a lot and coming together again. We’ve been through all the stages like other couples as well. I don’t say it’s all fairy tales and honeybees. If you ask him today, are you happy? He may say no, she didn’t clean the dishes today. But maybe tomorrow, he will say yeah, of course. It’s amazing.

Do you think that starting a relationship on the road is a good thing?

It’s so individual, as is the question of starting your online business on the road because it requires a lot of effort and dedication, and persistence. What we did was full-on, we started dating and started an online business on the road, and then the kids came, so many elements in our lives that I’d say if you can, do them separately. It’s going to be a lot easier for you if you can focus on one thing at a time. Life never plays according to plan, and we should embrace it every time and at every stage that comes our way. If you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend back home, and you’re now thinking about doing this travel thing, and if you can’t convince him or her to come with you, do it anyway. Because if she or he is the one, they will wait for you; they might even get inspired by your activism and courage. Or if they’re not the one and you could find your true inner self on your travels because that’s important. I was traveling solo for one year before I met him. It gave me a lot of time to focus on myself, and it was a journey around the world for me and a journey inwards. I’m not saying that I found myself within this one year because I did lots of crazy things. I ticked things off my bucket list. I was pretty busy finding out what I wanted from this travel trip. It helped distance myself from my past relationship and helped me find out what I didn’t want in my next partner.

How is has travel changed from a solo traveler, to a couple, and now with kids?

Traveling solo is an experience that I wish everyone experienced because it pushes you out of your comfort zone. I think this is so important. It helps you become comfortable with feeling uncomfortable if that makes sense. For example, I sat having dinner alone; I was in Singapore, and I had to go out and grab dinner all by myself; it was so weird for me. I was scared and didn’t want anyone to speak to me; I was insecure. I had fears that people would approach me, and I felt uncomfortable. I still had to do it because I needed to eat, and then slowly but surely, I was easing in, and I thought even talking to random strangers while eating isn’t that horrible? It removed lots of my shyness, and I realized that being open towards other people benefits you because each conversation can bring a spark into your life and a new perspective. It’s so refreshing; what I hated, in the beginning, turned into one of my most favorite activities throughout the trip. These were extremely valuable experiences because now, I’m not afraid of reaching out to other people in my business; it can be applied to the online world because many businesses work by reaching out to people. There is no blockage or fear, or resistance, which I know many people suffer from.

When you travel alone, you can choose whatever you want to do at your own pace. It’s nice to have, but at the same time, I have to admit I am a people person and love hanging out with people. I missed this when I was sitting and watching sunsets on my own, not talking to someone about how awesome it was; it’s different when you can share happiness. But I don’t regret having the first few all to myself. I am very grateful that my partner came into my life, and I could relive the same moments and the same feelings and share them with someone special. So yes, I’d say this is one of the most different things, and as soon as you have someone else in your life, you adjust to each other’s needs. You realize what you love might not be the same, but you compromise and find alternatives. I think this is also the beauty of this lifestyle, teaching you flexibility and staying flexible. Flexibility is one of the key factors that I discovered for myself. Whenever something unplanned comes my way, I make sure I look at it positively and embrace the change, making it work and fit it in. I escaped my old life because I didn’t want that routine anymore. So why would I now cling to a routine if it’s not necessary?

When you have kids, everything changes, and you do have to adjust everything; your needs are not important anymore. In the beginning, you only worry about how the little ones are feeling; where do we need to feed them and clean them. If I wanted to wrap this all up and the past ten years, I’d say my solo travel year was speedy; I wanted to see as many bucket list things as possible. The couple phase, the five years of traveling with my partner, was a mixture of slow and speedy travel. As soon as our first son was born in 2017, we made sure that he was travel proof by taking him on a road trip and looked at how it would be traveling with kids. As soon we passed the test, we just decided to go to places we already knew that there are other families, so we were in the same environment and had good connections. I picked places where I knew I could have those commodities that I thought were necessary for the beginning.

My eldest will turn four in May, and the little one will turn two in May. They’re ready to go anywhere with us whenever we felt good; our kids felt good. So if you’re worried about traveling, and if you’re tense and nervous, it will mirror in your children, and everything can blow up and turn into a nightmare. As soon as you realize you’re just moving from one place to the next and the journey is the fun part. You have to make every minute as comfortable and entertaining for them; the journey is the goal. 

Was traveling with kids always part of your plans?

No, it was always on and off; up until my 30s, I was convinced kids weren’t in our plans. I was not so sure about the topic. My partner wondered how kids would change everything. He has a big family, and he’s the second eldest of six brothers. When he was a child, he had to take care of the little ones, which meant work. We had this mindset for a long time. Then hormones and your biological clock play a part, and I started thinking what if. I was at a Nomad event, and we were having a conversation and talking about the future of nomads. What happens when all the initial nomads who started this lifestyle get to this stage in life when they decide if they should have children or not. There was a heated discussion about creating schools worldwide to make it easy to get an education on the road. This was the first time I thought kids don’t necessarily mean an end to our lifestyle. We had this conversation, and we talked about not getting any younger and not wanting to be a 40-year-old mother. If we’re going to do it, we should do it now. We had an entire year of travel plans laid out when I started getting tired and having cravings. I was wildly in shock because I didn’t think it would happen so fast. But I embraced the change but continued with our travel plans. During this time, I was offered a business opportunity in Melbourne, and we decided to go back to Australia so the baby would be an Australian citizen. I was five months pregnant, and we were in the process of arranging our paperwork when we got the news my mother had been diagnosed with cancer. I was extremely emotional, so we canceled everything in Australia and booked tickets to Germany. That’s why my first son was born in Germany. After being outside of my country for more than five years, it was hard for me to get back into the system. We decided to stick around for a while to see how my mom does and spoiler alert; she’s doing great. Seeing her grandson grow and come into this world gave her such an energy boost, and she was so happy. She didn’t need any chemo or any therapy afterward. She was just with us; it was amazing. I don’t say that you can cure cancer with a newborn, but it helped a lot in her case. We hung around for a while and made some trips from Germany within Europe. After he was one, we decided it was time to travel around the world again.

How do you juggle family, work, and travel?

It’s a constant process and learning curve. We have set up a decent system for us, but it took us some time. In the beginning, we both wanted to always be there for our children. Our second son was born in Spain; we were there for six months for his birth. We had to adjust our schedules, but we had this idealistic vision that we could be there for our children and make money. It didn’t work well. After some time, we had to split the work. I would get some work completed then swap with my partner; it’s a pretty good system. We plan our weeks using a calendar; we fit in all our appointments and make it work. Our type of work also allows us to adjust our schedules. My biggest recommendation is if you have children or if you plan to have children make sure that you can set up your online business so that you can take one day off, even if it’s a Monday.

How do you manage child education while traveling?

So, for now, we are not in the age group where they must go to school. Obviously, with life, you can learn something new every day and let them pick whatever interests them. We help them write and read. We tried kindergarten with our eldest, but he wants to hang around at home. He’s happy when he can play at the beach or in the garden, counting seashells or constructing with wood in the garden; he gets his lessons in everyday life. I’m not worried about it. Every new input helps encourage their little brains to learn. I’m open to options, but I’m not under this pressure. I live this lifestyle not to be forced into systems. So why would I now impose something on my children when I think it’s not necessary? I’m sure he’s going to learn reading and writing one day, and I don’t care if he does that now or if he does it later. I would be worried if he cannot do that before turning ten, but of course, I’m just kidding. Education is one topic that people must rethink again because sitting in school doesn’t mean that you learn something.

If you look at my four-year-old, he speaks Spanish and German. After all, we speak that at home, but then he picked up English because most people speak English here. He knows some Thai words, and the neighbor’s boy is Russian, so he has picked up some Russian. It’s incredible to see how they pick up things like sponges. I don’t have to worry that much as a parent; at least that’s what I believe. Children are trained to be open-minded, flexible, and have all the skills that I think are important in modern lives.

What’s the most common question you get from people interested in being a digital nomad? And what’s your advice on that?

Interestingly, I have a mixture of typical clients. Some of them are aspiring digital nomads, and they always have the basic questions, how do I do it? What countries are the safest? How do I connect with communities for my children to play with? How do I do it with health insurance, visa, etc.? I enjoy talking about these things, and I’m happy to help anyone getting started. Then 50% of my clients already have an idea or have already set up an online business, but they want to get help. They say they aren’t reaching their ideal client, their income isn’t stable, or their idea isn’t good enough; they need validation. So I help them create their online business and scale it to make their brands more visible on social media. The range of questions is very different. But because I love this lifestyle, and I’m an advocate for the nomadic lifestyle, I want people to try it out once, and if they have questions, I’m more than happy to help them. At the same time, I’m passionate about marketing; that’s my professional background. I think social media nowadays is one fantastic tool to get seen, connect with your clients, and eventually make a sustainable income. I’m combining it and helping in both areas.

Do you think Covid has increased the number of people interested in becoming a digital nomad?

Yeah, absolutely. Covid has been revolutionary because many people are now pushed towards thinking of and coming up with new ideas and looking towards other options and lifestyles. I’ve been approached a lot more in the last year. I’d say it’s good not only for people who are either creating an online business or looking into remote work freelancing because there are opportunities out there for everyone. If you want to run a business and work remotely, companies are now more open to that. Making that shift and transitioning to remote work now is a good option. Building a sustainable portfolio and position yourself as a remote worker out. I think it’s a smart move.

Everyone experiences the world in a different way, but food has got to be something everyone at least thinks about when traveling. In this episode, the Foodie Flashpacker – Nathan Aguilera shares his journey to taste the world. We chat about our favourite cuisines, how dishes and ingredients vary across continents and tips to go about finding local haunts. Nathan also speaks about what got him started traveling and what it takes to run a food and travel blog.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Tell us about yourself.

My name is Nathan Augilera. I’m the creator of Foodie Flashpacker, a food-focused travel blog. I’ve been solo traveling now for just over seven, originally from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Currently, I’m in Medina, Mexico, and soon I’ll be relocating to Puerto Vallarta,Mexico. I’ve been to five continents, in about 65 or so countries.

How do you find the best food spots when traveling?

I never use TripAdvisor. One of my favorite ways is to do a walking food tour. Straightaway, when I get to a new city, I explore on foot and get a feeling of its layout. The guides are excellent information sources. At the end of all these tours, I start drilling them for information about where they live near because I don’t want to know the most touristy place in town. I don’t want to know the most famous. I don’t want to know the most expensive. I want to know where they go with their friends for beers after work. At 5 pm, when work finishes, where do they go? Or what are their favorite Sunday brunch places? Besides just talking to random locals, sitting at the bar chatting to a bartender, or speaking to the person sitting next to you, do a walking food tour and drill your guide because they are a source of information and wealth of knowledge.

What is your favorite cuisine?

My favorite cuisine, I’d say I have three, my top three Italian, Vietnamese and Mexican. I don’t know much about Vietnamese food as I do Italian and Mexican food, but I know that I love Vietnam. The food is insane. The food is so next level, half the time, I don’t even know the name of the dish that I’m eating, but it’s fantastic. But my favorite thing about Italian and Mexican cuisines is that what we Americans think of as Mexican food is more Tex Mex. The more time that I’ve spent in Mexico, the more I’ve realized that the food is very different. It’s not all enchiladas, burritos, nachos that we think of in the United States, especially the part of Mexico where I’m living. Same thing with Italy. In the States, we think of Italian food as spaghetti, lasagna, chicken alfredo, or stuff like that. When I went to Italy, I learned that in parts of Italy eat more polenta than they are pasta. Two summers ago, I was in Italy at the base of the Swiss Alps, and the food there didn’t look much like anything else that I was used to eating. I would love to do a deep dive into Italy. I’ve been fortunate to visit probably half the states of Mexico. Since I’ve been here, I would love to do a deep dive into Italian food and learn all about how it varies and how it’s different from place to place, region to region. When people asked me if I could only eat one kind of food for the rest of my life, what would it be? I always cheat and say Asian because that covers Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Indian; it covers so many different cuisines.

Mexico is a bit funny because we have some very spicy sauces here. But the spices that I’m used to in Thailand or Vietnam are a different kind of heat. Mexico is still very spicy; habanero sauces can get very spicy. But not like an authentic Thai dish, which will just kind of blow your face off. Then there are even local chilis that you don’t find in the rest of Mexico and aren’t as widely used as they are here. I love spicy food.

When choosing your travel destinations, do you base it on cuisines or locations? 

A little bit of both, a lot for me has to do with seasons; I try to avoid the winter. In the winters, I go somewhere warm. Lately, I’ve spent winters in Mexico. Before that, I spent a lot of time in Southeast Asia or different parts of Asia. In the summers, I always go to Europe, pre-Covid. I didn’t make it last summer; we’re hoping to go this summer. So firstly, it’s based on the season. I try to always be in warm weather destinations. Often, it’s to do with food, both Japan and South Korea; I’m sure there’s a lot of exciting things to see and do once I get there. I want to go for the food. Once we have the tickets and the flights and everything else, I’ll start figuring out what we should see and what we should do there. So when choosing my destination, seasonal comes first and secondly food. 

Do you tend to travel during peak seasons?

When I go to Europe, definitely Western Europe, I’ll try and go for the shoulder season. The majority of the time I spend in Eastern Europe, so even peak season is not crazy with tourists. You can be in Bulgaria in the middle of peak season and won’t feel overrun with tourists. Whereas if you’re in Rome or Barcelona in the middle of peak season, you’re going to notice it. I went to Chique Terre in October, and I was hoping that it would be the shoulder season to avoid a lot of the tourism, and it was so overcrowded. We were packed on a train, and when the train doors opened, we had to push past each other to get off. Chique Terre itself is beautiful, but I did not have a great experience.

Can you describe your flashpacker travel style?

I thought flashpacker was a more well-known term than it was. Maybe that’s because I was in a travel bubble. When I started it, I realized how many people didn’t know what it is. Flashpacker is this kind of travel style somewhere between budget and luxury. I always tell people when they ask me what a flashpacker is, I don’t sleep in dorms, and I can’t afford the Four Seasons. It’s somewhere in between the two of those. It’s a lot of Airbnbs and mid-range hotels. Most of the time, I’m in a private Airbnb, I don’t share spaces, I need my own, I don’t want to room in someone’s house.

There’s a middle ground, and I like to think my demographic and the people I’m aiming at are the same type of traveler, maybe 30 somethings, late 20 somethings, they have a budget for travel. They’re not scared to go out and spend money on a nice meal, but they’re going to be as excited about a Michelin star restaurant as they would be a great street food stand or standing on the corner eating tacos from a seafood van. They aren’t scared to spend a little bit of money on having these experiences. I don’t mean the people who try to travel on $10 a day. It’s stylized; it’s not a Disney thing. I have some excellent friends that were all too old for budget travelers. They were trying to get by on $5 a day or less. They had huge adventures, and I even found myself listening to them tell these stories about hitchhiking and getting in these crazy situations, and I thought I want to do that, but then, in reality, I don’t.

Have you found that your productivity as a digital nomad is affected by where you stay?

I know that hostels and accommodation like that aren’t for me because, like you, that’s how I started traveling. I remember being in Lisbon, sleeping in a 16-bed dorm, thinking like this isn’t for me; I would instead go to the Balkans where the same amount of money for a 16-bed dorm gives me a friendly local hotel or a simple Airbnb. I would stay in a hostel, but I’d stay in a private room. Hostels are an easy way to meet new people. You can always find people to go on day trips with, grab a beer with, or go to a restaurant with, especially if you’re traveling alone. As I’m getting older, I could stay in a hostel if I had a room to myself and my own bathroom. I don’t want to share bathrooms.

Tell us a bit more about what you do for your travel blog?

I’m trying to find the best places to eat for my travel blog and the best dishes worldwide. So if you were to come to Medina, the food here is different from other Mexican food. You can find some of my favorite Yucatecan dishes on my website. Then also, my favorite restaurants, where you can try these dishes. I feature international places as well. I can tell you where to get the best pizza in Medina and things like this, but just worldwide helping people find what they should be eating and where they can find it. It’s a food-focused travel blog, so it’s a travel blog with a heavy focus on food.

How did you start your food blog? Did you start traveling and get inspired by all the food you came across?

I traveled for about two years, just backpacking, not working, or doing anything, just solo traveling. I loved it, it was great, and I had a fantastic time, but I was running out of money. I needed something that structured my time because it’s nice waking up and have nothing to do and nowhere to be. Still, after a while, I needed a bit of structure, so I thought I needed to start something. I consider drop-shipping; I considered many different things online. I wanted the freedom and flexibility to work from anywhere in the world. I didn’t want to be tied down to one place, and I did not want to work for someone else. So, starting a blog sounded like the best idea at the time. I realized I needed a niche as travel blogging is too big. I decided on food because I’m such a food person. I was always the guy organizing which restaurant to go to with my friend groups. I’ve always been that guy in the group. Looking back, the food niche itself was not small enough. Food itself is still such a broad topic. Some of the people you see as having great success are vegan travelers worldwide, or celiac travelers around the world, or these ultra-niche things. I couldn’t even niche down further. Fortunately, I’ve been doing it for a little while, and I’m making food work for me. Some people might have a smaller audience; if you’re talking about celiac dishes around the world, you’re going to have a very engaged audience.

What are you looking for when choosing where to eat?

I try and cover a bit of everything; after all, I want anyone on any budget to open up my blog posts and find something for them. The people I’m interested in writing for would be just as excited for a street vendor as they would a Michelin star restaurant. It is not just fine dining, street food, everything in between, just something for everyone, a little bit of something for everyone. If you are a backpacker trying to get by on 20 bucks a day, I want someone to be able to open it up and find where they can have the best street food in whatever city. It is geared towards people on their honeymoon or anniversary who want to find that fine dining option to celebrate.

How was your journey in getting your food travel blog to the point where it is a sustainable income?

It was so slow. I think I did a lot of things wrong in the beginning. I tell people that I lost money in the first year. By the time I got hosting and design logos, and all the things to start, I had invested quite a bit of money. In the second year, I made some money, but it wasn’t great. I’ve been blogging now for five years, and it wasn’t until year three where I started thinking it could be a business, but the first year was awful to create a project and lose money the first year. Five years into it, things are going quite well, pre-Covid. I was going in the right direction and was quite happy. With Covid, of course, trying to make money off travel meant I lost 90% of my blogging income. So, it’s been like a slow crawl to get back to where it was, but it gave me the time to study some courses and work on my site. Things that were on my to-do list that never got done, I finally had the time to do these jobs. Things are starting to pick back up and in a better direction. The numbers are slowly going up. Hopefully, as everyone starts to get vaccinated and borders reopen and everyone starts to research travel again, numbers will go back to where they were.

Did you approach your blog differently during Covid? Have you had to change your content?

No, I considered it, and I did a little bit with recipes. I quickly realized everyone was stuck at home cooking. Suddenly, recipe blogging took off, but I quickly realized I was in over my head. My kitchen in the house that I’m in now is tiny. I needed a bigger kitchen and a setup with cameras and lighting to get the photos. I needed to move houses to do recipe blogging or rent a small studio that was a shared multi-use space. I was over my head.

It’s a different game compared to regular blogging. Lots of recipe blogging is very targeted towards Americans, and my access to some of the same products was limited. Then partnerships that I would have wanted, which could have been lucrative, I would have had to arrange to ship to Mexico, and it became a whole thing. I was in talks with a couple of different companies. They don’t want to ship internationally, or you can’t send something that will spoil or need to be refrigerated, types of ingredients for international recipes. Now I just work on my site and work on my to-do list of technical things and wait for things to go back to how they were.

Do you enjoy cooking and recreating the foods that you have tasted?

Yeah, definitely. I’m inspired when I’m cooking different flavor profiles worldwide. I have rarely recreated a dish because it’s complicated to do that when you’re in a country without access to the ingredients that made that dish so delicious in the other country. But I will try and do some variation or modified local version of something that I’ve had in the past. 

One year I was in Sri Lanka, and I tried to make a Christmas or Thanksgiving dinner; it was hard to find things when you can’t read the language. You’re trying to identify foods by how they look on the outside of the package. I tried to make a traditional dressing, but they don’t use much sage in Sri Lanka. So you have to do it as close as you can get it and try and make it work.

Do price, ambiance, and experience matter more than the food?

For me, food is the most important thing. Last night, we were in a charming restaurant, and we walked in, and we were all impressed with how pretty it was. The service was excellent. But we left saying we’ll never come back because the food wasn’t good. I’ve been served many times in Southeast Asia, some fantastic food while sitting on a plastic stool, and a little plastic table by a rude server. But I will go back whenever the food is good; I will sit on my little plastic chair, and he can be as rude to me as he wants. While the food is good, I’ll keep turning up. The restaurant can be stunning. The service can be beautiful, but if you bring me a bad plate of food, I never need to go back. 

How do you stay fit with your love for food?

I have just lost almost 40 pounds, about 17 kilos. I’ve still got a bit to go, but it’s been easy to do. If you already need to lose weight, which I already needed to do, don’t start a food blog; it made things that much worse. When you go to a country, they tell you that something is the best thing in this country. You have to try it. It’s never anything good for you; it’s never a salad. It’s always something delicious but usually pretty awful for you. Have you been to Portugal? Their sandwiches have three kinds of meat and cheese and french fries, and it’s so delicious. But the whole time you’re eating it, you can feel yourself getting bigger. So I’ve had to start working out. During Covid, I found myself with a lot more time to dedicate to health and wellness. I just came from CrossFit right before we hopped on this interview. I alternate between yoga and CrossFit; we have a personal trainer that comes to the house we work with, and then my gym membership for weight training. By doing all of these things, I’m not losing weight; I want to. It takes all of that to stabilize my weight. The amount of training I’m doing, I should be very thin or very fit.

Tell us a bit about yourself before you started traveling?

Before I started traveling, I was back home in Oklahoma City. I worked as a legal assistant at a law firm. I did some volunteer charity work in Kenya; I met all these people who had been traveling for six months at a time or one year at a time. I had never even heard of this. I never even knew this was an option or possibility. For me, you traveled for two weeks at a time. Then I became obsessed with the idea of long-term traveling. I came home, and I started reading every blog to find how to make it possible. I was considering teaching English. Did I want to be a scuba dive instructor? How could I travel and make money simultaneously? I think this was ten years ago, so this was before people talked about digital nomadism and things like that. So blogging was one of the options that I had considered.

I leaned towards teaching English, moving to South Korea, and becoming an English teacher. If the blogging ever collapsed, I still wouldn’t hate that idea because South Korea is one of the places I’m most wanting to visit; I really would like to dive into their food scene, and teaching English seems to be quite well paid. But right now, at this point in my life, I don’t ever want to work for anyone else again unless it was my last option. But that was me like in Oklahoma City, working at a law firm, plotting how to get out, live this dream, work, travel, see the world, meet people, try all the foods, see all the places. I led the administrative executives; I managed a small team. I have to say; I didn’t hate the job. But I did university very late; I didn’t graduate until I was 32 or 33. I was trying to save money for this trip; I had three jobs at one time. Trying to save money for the journey and full-time school burned me out, so I can’t say the job itself burned me out. It was actually a nice place to work. I had some friendly co-workers that I’m still in contact with—trying to do all of those things at once definitely burnt me out. 

What was your savings goal before starting to travel?

Well, I didn’t have a set exact amount in my head, but I wanted to go on a six-month trip. This was back when I was reading how to travel on $50 a day. I needed around $10,000, but I always knew I wanted to travel for one year. So, I knew I needed more than this. But my plan went awful because the money that I was going to have to travel the world would come from selling my car, which I’d recently paid off. The week that I was putting my car for sale, the engine light came on, and I had to spend 1000s of dollars to fix it, but the mechanic screwed me over, and I had to send it to another mechanic. I ended up selling the car for about half of what it was worth, about $6000. So, with that and my savings, is why I was sleeping in 16-bed dorms at the beginning. I had planned to leave with a lot more money. Around the two-year mark was when I started the blog because I knew that I wanted to make money to keep traveling.

I told everyone I was leaving for six months, but I felt like I was just getting started when the six months approached. I was such a newbie traveler, and I felt like I was beginning to know what I was doing. Now, I’m not making all these dumb mistakes. So, I announced on Facebook that I was staying six more months. Then every six months, I just kept saying six more months, six more months. Finally, when it got to the two-year point, I announced I didn’t have any plans to come home; this is what I’m doing.

I love traveling and being my own boss, and working for myself. Anytime I’ve thought about going back home to the United States, I always think, what would I do there? What would my job be? It would have to be an always-changing job, where you’re not at a desk from nine to five. I would have to be moving about and interacting with many different people. Different every day. I would need freedom and flexibility, and the opportunity to meet new people.

In terms of you’re traveling life, what’s next?

I’m moving to Puerto Vallarta, the opposite side of Mexico, where I am now. I’ve been here a long time, and I have a good group of friends here; I have a solid base. But I’ve been here a long time, and I’m missing travel. I’m ready for a change of scenery. I’ve recruited some of my friends; there are about five or six of us, we’re all moving to Puerto Vallarta. From there, I’ll spend two months in Puerto Vallarta while I wait to see if the borders reopen and see if I can get a vaccination to get into Europe this summer, hopefully. I typically spend about half the year in Europe, so hopefully, that’ll work out so that I can get in there this summer. If it works out, we have a trip to Italy in June. My sister’s birthday is in July; we have a trip to Jamaica planned. Other than that, it’ll probably just be a lot of time in the Eastern Europe Balkans area. In October, we had a group tour in Bali; it will be nice to be back in Asia. I’ll probably stick around there for a good chunk of the year, probably through the new year. With my Mexican passport, there’s an opportunity to live in Spain for two years and then receive an EU passport. If that’s a viable option, then at some point, I’ll be moving to Spain and starting my two-year residency to receive my EU passport. So, there are many plans that we’re optimistic about. But of course, there are too many variables outside of my control. I’m waiting to see what happens. I know I am moving to Puerto Vallarta with friends of mine and hanging out by the beach. There we will wait and see what the world’s going to do.

What’s your advice to anyone who wants to quit their job and go on an adventure? 

One, save up a lot of money; there are so many things that come up on the road, and there are so many variables and things you’re going to want to see and do. Leave with as much money as possible. If you’re wanting to travel the world, and work simultaneously, have stable clients before you leave. Don’t get on the road and then start looking for clients; at least have two or three that provide you minimum income that helps you afford your rent and food every month, have savings.

What are blogging tips to avoid making the same mistakes you have and maybe speeding up the process?

Niche down, figure out your niche; you need a super niche. Come up with your niche and treat it like a business initially; I didn’t. Have a plan, have goals, look at where you need to be in three-six months, where should you be in one year? How will you get there with your type of blogging? Blogging is not like an online daily journal type. The big thing for me was learning SEO, trying to learn SEO, or making some advancements towards learning SEO because I don’t know anyone who can say they know SEO. I remember being at a blogging conference; everyone was talking about SEO. I had no idea what they’re talking about; this is why my blogs made no money. Focus on the basics, figure out your niche, and go in with a business plan. As soon as your blog starts making some money, start outsourcing the things you hate doing. Not even the things that you hate doing, the things that you’re not good at doing. Some of my opponents spend hours and hours on their site doing technical or coding stuff. I would instead get these things done and over with by paying someone else to do these things. Hire them out; you’re going to get an ROI on it.

Are you going to explore other mediums of content?

Video is something I know that I should be doing. At some point, I need to, but it’s a whole other beast and lots to learn. I’m at the point where I’m considering hiring a full-time blog manager to take some of these tasks off my hands. Maybe then I can look at doing things like learning videos. Some of my friends are highly successful YouTubers, so I know that it’s possible; it’s just the shooting and editing. YouTube has its own SEO and algorithms; it seems complicated and difficult. If I had more time on my hands, someone to take some of these menial tasks off my hands, I could focus on the next thing. I could be making more money doing it, and I need to get on it.

Challenging the conventional education system, we look at how WorldSchooling actually imparts more important life skills that are often overlooked amidst the hustle & bustle of life. Joined by TEDxEdu speaker and CoFounder of Project World School – Lainie Liberti, we discuss the importance of empathy and opening up to perspectives. Learning is a lifelong journey and the world might just be the best classroom.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Tell us about yourself and your background story.

My story started in 2008, that’s when my son and I decided to leave the United States and travel. We lived in California, and I owned a business. I’d spent 18 years working in advertising, marketing, and design. For the last eight of those years, I owned an agency; it was a boutique branding agency that was doing quite well until 2008 when the California economy crashed. Being a single parent, I felt so much stress and overwhelmed. I was not managing, balancing my time between parenting and running my business. I always thought I’m doing this for my family, that there’s a reason why I’m doing it. But I honestly wasn’t great at managing and balancing my soul when the economy crashed. My son, who was nine at the time, said Mom, you’re always working, you never spend any time with me – heartbreaking.

I just said to him; You know what, let’s have an adventure. Let’s sell all our stuff and just put on some backpacks and have an adventure together. That was the beginning; it was the best thing that ever happened. That was 12 and a half years ago; we didn’t go back. We’re still on our one-year trip. You never know what can happen. Many changes happened on the road; he was nine, just turning 10 when we set out, and he’s going to be turning 22 in April. Time flies, and his entire childhood was nomadic. We stayed in different places, and we immersed ourselves in different cultures. We were present in our own lives and had so much to talk about.

How do you feel world schooling has benefited your son?

Before we left, I sat down and hammered out how we wanted to experience this adventure. Part of the things that we came up with was we wanted to be in partnership; it wasn’t my decision, and it wasn’t his decision. That was important for us. We applied that concept, and we were already pretty much practicing it. However, from a parenting perspective, I was still the authority, and we live within the conception of conventional life. But this was about a partnership; this was different. I would always be the adult, he’d always be the child, but the decision-making was ours to make. That meant that how we would spend our budget would be decided together. We also decided to develop important themes to us, and mostly really important to my son. Although we had a close friendship, he said that he was very customed, to me saying no to him due to lack of time. So, this was going to be a journey into saying yes. Be careful what you set into motion because you have to balance what was safe and what wasn’t aligned with our core values. These were conversations that we were having in our family structure all the time. But I hadn’t been able to say yes to adventure and opportunities and being spontaneous. We were stepping into this with the idea that, yes, would be a big part of our journey. About eight months into our journey, we had done a lot of traversing back and forth. We stayed in some places and did a lot of different things. My son said he wanted to keep doing it forever, and I agreed. That was when I had to shift gears and shift mindset, and figure out how to make this sustainable. That was when I had to address the educational portion of it. We are always learning. We have brains; that’s what we do. Suppose we shift our mindset to acknowledging that we are all life-learners. There are many ways to learn: experiential learning, social learning, and actual academic learning. It extends beyond what we call the education system, so I needed to look at the educational portion.

We had learned tonnes about the history and the places where we were. We learned about archaeology and anthropology. We learned about our relationship with the environment and the cultures. We looked at how cultures progressed; it was fascinating. Looking back on the first eight months, we were learning effortlessly because we were so engaged in the present. We empowered each other to follow what we were interested in seeing, doing, and learning. That was a powerful epiphany, the realization that learning was happening. Even though I took my son out of school, I knew that this was a better education than he would ever get in fifth grade. I just thought, let’s continue this path because I learned so much in those first eight months without even trying. I learned because we were present, and I was curious; that’s what my brain does. So ask questions, be present, take in new information, integrate it, give it meaning, and connect it to other things; that’s learning.

How has world schooling developed your understanding of worldviews and challenged the norm? 

That became a theme within our travels over the last 12 years. We’ve given classes on this, and the exploration of worldviews is a powerful and necessary process, especially in a globalized world. We’re connected; this is a global way of connecting. One experience we had that drilled home how vital worldviews were was when we were in Ecuador, off the coast in this little fishing village. We had our perception of what the environment looked like, and we ran this through filters of our own experience. We were having a coastal chat with locals, and our worldviews were then imposed on them. We met teachers and schoolchildren within this village, and they were working to integrate the beaches and the surrounding jungles as part of their learning environment.

I would have never seen it that way; I just would have taken that for granted. We met the conservationists who looked at the ocean as a place to preserve. That was slightly different from the teachers’ and the villagers’ perception because now they’re concerned with the whales. The villagers and the children, we’re looking at some of the fables and myths around the immigrating whales. We met the fishermen, who went out on the boats every single day and came back to the beach and started gutting and cleaning and selling their fish leaving behind tons of fish waste on the shore. Their focus, their perception, was looking at this to provide for their families. They were all coming at it from different perspectives, and then our mindset was different because we were tourists. At that moment, we realized that there is no such thing as one global worldview. The more we recognize that there is space to have different worldviews live side by side and not be threatened by each other but coexist. That’s our work as travelers. That’s our work as world schoolers. That’s our work as humans, creating that space, finding the bridges of connection, instead of focusing on the differences.

How do you feel understanding perspectives is an important life skill? 

I’m not a big fan of conventional schooling; the idea that you must pour these academics into kids’ heads is lame, especially when we’ve got phones where we can access any information at our fingertips. What I can say is more important is creating problem-solving skills. You do that by being in the real world and looking at real-world situations, research, learning how to be curious, and not be afraid of your curiosity. That leads to learning, resilience, collaboration, and cooperation; all these things happen while traveling. You call them soft skills; I call them life skills. Those are the most important things for us to practice, not only when our children are small but also for us adults to practice too because most of us didn’t have the opportunity to learn these things.

Do you feel travel and world schooling have helped develop you both as a person?

It did for us, and in terms of where I was before we started traveling, I did a lot of self-development work. I read so much about how to be president in your own life, but I never had the time to practice it. It helped me; personally, my self-development as the human I was supposed to be, was meant to be or wanted to be. Travel for me was that vehicle; I got to express myself as a person and be in touch with myself. I realized that travel for me and world schooling with my son was that gift. It wasn’t my intention, but I’m glad that it developed that way. I can’t even imagine who my son would be had we not left or who I would have become had we not left.

I love being in this world, and I love having this amazing classroom. I never knew that the world, both the inner and the outer worlds, were so rich. I was so focused on the outer world before, my position, status, and bank account, that I forgot about the inner worlds’ richness. I got to rebalance those scales quite a bit in terms of balancing. Part of my saying yes was because I saw how different life was. It didn’t have to stressful, and there was so much joy. The other thing that I realized was, I had almost missed out on the first ten years of my son’s childhood because of my addiction to being busy. I didn’t want that anymore. I was willing to cherish however much time I had left my son’s childhood because soon he’d be growing into an adult. He’d be off leading his own life. What an honor it is to be a parent; what a great joy. I wanted to have that experience. I did hear from some of my professional friends; you’re committing professional suicide, but I was finally able to balance what was important to me.

What challenges did you face in your world schooling journey?

Our biggest challenge as parents is de-schooling from this lifestyle to another. We are looking at these belief systems that are so ingrained in us that the voices of doubt come up; is my child learning, will he go to university, am I ruining his life, but those are not my voices. But they do play in our heads, and when these things play in our heads, we’ve got a couple of things that we can do. Number one, hear what is said, figure out where they come from, and then challenge and shift these beliefs. What would happen if you trusted the experience of learning naturally, without putting these arbitrary rules that come from somebody else into the relationship. Learn how to acknowledge those thoughts, learn how to listen to them, and choose to reprogram them. I decided not to put arbitrary rules and controls into my son or family relationship. Those things shifted how I lived. We decided early on to be in partnership. So if the concern is that I want you to understand math because I believe these things are essential, we can work together to do our budgeting. Let’s figure out how much money we need; let’s translate the money into a different currency; let’s figure out how long it takes to go from place to place on a train. It’s in context. It’s not this arbitrary thing. There are ways of creating these things in context without imposing a rule to learn them. Stepping back and being in a partnership, in dialogue, and processing what’s going on in those inner worlds. If it’s thundering and lightning and raining in the outer worlds and inside, you’re feeling joyous, then you look at that as a beautiful time to go out and dance barefoot in the rain. But how are we going to process that together?

Did you follow a curriculum during your world schooling journey?

We never used a curriculum; people who world school approach the education portion differently. There are many ways to worldschool; we took an unschooling approach, which means we didn’t separate life from learning. That invited me to actualize and step into my natural curiosity and engage in the world around me. I was always curious; I still am always curious. I’m always looking at something or reading or watching or listening to something. I’m always curious, why does that tree outside my window have those little spikes? What does it mean? And why are the seeds you turning into what looks like cotton? It’s just bizarre, and so that actual question led me into researching. I understood why that tree looks like that and why it turns into cotton. I don’t have to learn that in the class. When curiosity comes up, I’ve got this device to seek out those answers. Modeling this natural curiosity also invites my son to tap into his ability to ask and answer questions. So, did we follow a curriculum? Not at all, that wasn’t our choice? Some families do because that’s what’s important to them.

How did you manage the challenges of building relationships while traveling?

My son struggled with what he perceived as isolation and not having a social network, and that coincides with the time of the brain shifting social learning from the family unit to a friend unit. That’s what adolescence is about; that’s why friends are crucial during adolescence. We had a deep heart to heart at that time. Did he want to carry on with this lifestyle or stop? We decided to bring people to use. That was the birth of Project World School; I learned everything I could about adolescent development, hosting communities, learning communities, travel, how to structure retreats, planning everything. I didn’t know what I was doing; I learned. The first year, we got a couple of kids, and it was hard; we made some mistakes. We revised and improved upon that. Each year, we added more and more retreats. And this then developed into our primary income stream. Until 2020, we were doing four to six retreats a year, and that’s anywhere from two to four-week retreats. I loved it; I love working with teens; I loved helping and creating space for them to process the inner worlds.

We just spent all this time doing this, and now I wanted to facilitate this. I realized that it was such an incredible opportunity for teens to step into their power because I worked in partnership with my son; I extended that as the team retreats’ foundation. Together we came up with a structure and an ideology that worked for us. So that’s what we did. We brought teens from around the world, lived in community, we been to Ecuador, to Mexico, to Peru, to Japan, to South Africa, to Wales, to Thailand, all over we’ve made these incredible trips,and realized that this is the work that I loved doing. I loved working with teams. That was a big part of the business creation. Parents started saying they would want to do it too, so instead of hosting retreats, we began organizing conferences. They were hubs where all the world schoolers out there traveling could come together twice a year, in different places. The parents needed community, and so did the younger kids. We launched the project, World School Family Summits, and met in Mexico during Spring. In the fall, we would alternate between locations in Asia and Europe. Many families came to all of them; the whole community was coming together, learning, and sharing. It was such a powerful part of our lives.

Last year, I launched a company where I’ve been working with teens online. I’ve been teaching them during 12-week courses tools for self-improvement, processing their inner worlds, managing stress and anxiety. We unpacked some of those big feelings they’re having, and all in harmony with their brain development because I had eight previous years of working with teens; I knew what they were facing. That launched this year, and my son is co-teaching the younger group with me, so we’re still working together, but we’re doing it online with teens and tweens. Then I launched another project with another friend of mine, working with parents. I taught world schooling parents how to design a family culture that worked for them at all the summits and all the conferences I hosted. The feedback that I got from the families that were traveling was that we would have killed each other if we had not had these strategies and tools. Families that had never spent so much time together are now working from home. Their kids are doing school from home. The company that I recently launched with my friend Sarah is to teach these skills to any parent who’s interested in partnership and parenting in their homes. I’m taking what I’ve learned and adapting it for pandemic times.

How have you changed or adapted your business in response to the pandemic?

There is so much value in connecting in real life. We need to look at this past year as an extreme and glean everything we can from learning from that experience but recognizing that human connection is essential. When the pandemic first hit, I was in Mexico for our Project World School Family Summit. Everything just started getting shut down, and I immediately investigated how I could support my community. We would do women’s circles at the Summit, where it would be a very sacred space for the group’s moms to be seen, be heard and speak their truth and connect. I brought that online to the women in our world schooling community. Every week until December, I hosted a weekly women’s circle for free to ensure that they had that safe space.

My son and I also started hosting free teen meetups every week and then a second age group for the tweens. We would make sure that we had this safe space for teens and tweens to connect with their friends and meet new friends worldwide. We played games and had so much fun; we had a blast. My commitment to world schoolers has been about serving and providing value. I’m still doing the teen and tween meetups. Another couple of women took over the women’s circle because it’s really about the conversations we’re having among all these age groups. After all, I can’t wait to get back together and go on trips and hug people. I’m not losing hope. I’m balancing what is safe, when’s the right time to do it. I think we might be having a Project World School Family Summit here in Mexico in June. If it’s safe, we’re doing it.

How do human interactions impact your philosophy of service?

It’s part of my core values. I worked in advertising, and there wassomething soul-sucking about creating consumerism that got me so off-balance. I felt like I’m not going to look for purpose and meaning in my own life, through the outer worlds anymore. What lights me up, what really lights me up. I love that I’m on my path; I’m on purpose when I’m supporting other people. I had to make sure that giving of myself and feeding of myself were balanced, so in 2020,there was a whole lot of giving and making sure everybody was okay. But I realized that my business would not start again; in 2020, Project World School. We had canceled every trip that we had on the books; I needed to take a little step back and think about how I could be of service and fold this into my work. I could easily go back into consulting and branding and web design and advertising, but it doesn’t feel like I’m of service to the world. I’m not creating any shining lights for people; I’m not helping people. That is one of my core values.

What advice would you give to parents who are considering world schooling but concerns about generating enough income?

That’s a big one; I would find support around the location-independent business aspect; that’s not my expertise. I don’t talk about that because I only know my path. I have met some brilliant people who support others in creating location-independent businesses. I would say, really work on dedicating some time to defining what education means to you, what those expectations are, and determining how you wish to experience your family culture. How do you want to engage? How do you want to make decisions? What are the traditions and rituals you want to share? What things define and design your family culture, and then find some tools that you can use to help you process some of these limiting beliefs. Know your triggers, spend some time on those inner worlds as well. When you start getting those things in order, those will not interfere with the outer world, and the outer world is what we’re talking about with world schooling. I hope that was useful.

What are some of the more common challenges or problems you think most parents would face?

The biggest issue is expectations and agendas. We must watch it when we, as parents, believe we have the authority to set our families’ agendas. If the family members don’t align with the same goals, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. If you’re in reaction mode to these triggers, you’re not going to create a joyous experience. So, watch your judgments and agendas. Create the ability to be in dialogue with everybody in the family, and make sure everybody is heard, make sure they’re seen and understood. Make sure everybody is on board because if you’re dragging somebody along, that’s not going to work. I guarantee you, if you are forcing a child to do this, you’ll have a miserable time. If your child’s resonating in fear that they’re going to miss out, then start creating solutions as a family to hear those needs and meet them. If your child is worried about leaving his best friend, maybe you could have the best friend come with you for two weeks, every six months, how great would that be? You’ll have a balance where everybody’s needs are met; it doesn’t mean your child’s needs will be fulfilled all the time, but there’s got to be that safe space where everybody’s seen and heard. Or else why would you want to do it?

Do you feel that communication and issues are dealt with more effectively with world schooling families?

Absolutely, in terms of priorities and conventional families and lifestyles, it is low on the scale. All the other priorities are at the forefront, like work, family, school, schedules, obligations, bills and lights and food, cooking, and everything else. We don’t prioritize the family culture. When you’re traveling, that’s all you have; that is the security. Somebody asked my son if he had any security because I was dragging him worldwide. But his view was that he had more security than most families because he had me. Not everybody prioritizes their family; that’s okay. Those who want to world school to spend more time with their children and give their children the world need these tools to shift from a conventional way of living; to living outside the norm. We need tools to know how to deal with each other’s triggers and unpack these big topics, create safe spaces for all of us to be seen and heard, and honor one another as autonomous beings.

The horse can be the ultimate travel companion, unveiling a different view and experience of the world. How do you pursue a passion while traveling around the world on a horseback? The Equestrian Adventuress – Krystal Kelly shares her crazy, horsey adventures, including a key ingredient in being able to complete the brutal Mongol Derby. In this fun and engaging episode, we speak about grit and determination, how traveling changes your mentality, and creating awareness for women empowerment.

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The following is an extremely summarized version extracted from the transcript of the full conversation. I strongly recommend listening to the podcast for all the valuable insights. You will also hear more detailed and contextualized stories from the guest(s), as well as pointers from me in a two-way conversation.

Tell us about yourself and your traveling style? 

I am from California, America, and I left the USA in 2010. A little while ago, I didn’t know it was possible to work with horses in different countries. I didn’t know that was a thing. I’ve always wanted to work with horses professionally. I am certified, and I just had it in my brain. I was doing it. I just went on the internet and found a job online. I just thought this is my chance – I have to do it. The first job overseas that I experienced impacted me because seven fellow grooms helped care for the horses. We were all from different countries. I didn’t get many days off. When I did, I went to see things. I’ve traveled to over 60 countries, and I have worked professionally with horses in about 20. I’ve worked in countries like Egypt, Romania, Italy, India, and many other places. I’m constantly traveling and working with horses. I’ve recently started my own online digital nomadism thing. I have a YouTube channel and a podcast, making videos of my travels and riding. I have made an Amazon Prime series where I rode on horses around Greenland for a week.

Before that trip, I didn’t even know you could do that. Here I was in Greenland riding on these horses, and icebergs were floating right next to us. Like cracking and breaking, and the horses weren’t even bothered. They’re so used to the icebergs. It’s pretty cool. I’ve traveled to lots of countries and started writing clubs. I’ve begun the only riding club in Bhutan. I’ve gotten to meet a lot of cool people. Greenland is one of those places where you can take all the selfies you want, and no one will be in a single picture. It’s a gorgeous country, with friendly and interesting people. It’s a weird place, and it feels like you’re on Mars – it doesn’t seem real. 

How did you get into horseback riding in the first place?

Horses were for the rich in California. It was not affordable for my family at all. Luckily, I annoyed the crap out of my parents, begging for riding lessons, and I promised to work in exchange for paying for riding lessons. I could only afford to ride horses two times a month. It was a massive deal for my family because it was expensive and far away. But I loved it so much. I always knew that I would work with horses someday. I didn’t know anybody who had done that before. I didn’t realize it was possible. Everyone in my family tried to tell me to get a real job. I just knew that I couldn’t live without horses. I knew I needed to work with horses because I loved them so much. I turned 15 years old and got a job at a horse’s stables. I went to school and worked at the stables – I never stopped. In the USA, I found schools where I could learn about horses. I got certified in the USA as a trainer and a coach. Then, I had in my brain that I needed to go to Europe because that’s where all the horsey people are.

What exactly do you do when you say you work with horses around the world?

People travel the world, working different jobs. There is a community of job hoppers that do that, and there are websites where people post volunteer jobs. I never worked as a volunteer. There was a horsey job website called Yarden Group, and there are lots of jobs in other countries. I started on that website because I didn’t know anyone overseas. Through word of mouth, people kept referring me to jobs. I went to Romania and got a job, because of a girl I had met. The first job I had in Italy was also word of mouth and an accident. I had Sheikhs flying me out to Egypt – once you start, it’s easy. There is a lot of job opportunities out there. Especially in India or different countries, they needed certified people to help the locals because they didn’t have access to certifications or high-quality schools for horses. As soon as they hear that you’re interested in working, it is doable to find work.

I love what I do. I worked with a lot of high-end students. It’s wealthy people who have horses and in a lot of different countries. You work with well-off people, and you must work in a certain way. You must make sure that the horses are perfect, and everything is perfect. I was managing riding clubs, and I brought in architects and designed a facility for seven horses, and none of them was saddle trained. I had like a team of five or seven men who didn’t speak English working underneath me. I had to show them everything. I had to teach them how to train all the horses and put saddles on them. I had some exciting experiences, and they learned a lot about horses.

What are challenges you faced when starting the first riding club in Bhutan?

I was living in India at the time. I had seen a picture of the Tiger’s Nest Temple, a famous temple in Bhutan. I somehow found that picture on the internet, as soon as I saw it, I had to go to Bhutan. I browsed for hours to find out if there were horses in Bhutan. I researched, and there was a $300 a day fee for tourists. I was poor living in India. I couldn’t afford 300 US dollars a day to visit this country. I was 22 years old at the time, but I had it in my brain, I’m going to Bhutan.

Within a week, I was on a flight to Bhutan because I had found one photo on the internet of a horse. I emailed the guy who had posted the photo, and it belonged to a man who owned a tourism company. He said he wanted to make a horse-riding tour in Bhutan. It didn’t exist. He said he would pay me to create the only horse-riding tour in Bhutan. So that’s what I did. I was on a plane, and I was in Bhutan for a month. I didn’t have to pay tourism fees as I was there to work. I got to see Bhutan, the Bhutan that tourists don’t get to see. When I arrived, the guy who owned the tour company didn’t tell anyone I was coming to teach them horse riding. They all just kind of stared at me – they didn’t even know women could ride horses. We had the most fun, Bhutanese people are so happy, and they laugh. They’re just such amazing people. I had lots of fun, some scary situations if you’re on remote trails, no one can help you. If somebody falls off, I must make sure everyone gets home alive. The horses are all trained, and everything is safe. I’ve returned to Bhutan twice since. I brought my husband along with me for one of the trips and my mom for one of the other trips – they both got to come, and it was a lot of fun to show them.

How do you ensure the safety of your riders?

I brought my mom two years ago, and she had to take riding lessons just for this trip. I told her if you’re going to come for this trip, you need to take riding lessons to prepare, you need to walk, trot and canter before you arrive. So, she was preparing for this trip. Bhutan now has a rescue helicopter. So, if anyone falls off, we can get rescued. That’s not the goal here. Mom was already nervous about this horse because we don’t go for a little hour-long ride. We ride for five, six hours in the wilderness. And we don’t ride and come back to the stables we go, and we sleep somewhere, and we camp, and then we ride again. Yes, it can be dangerous. If I’m training the horses, the goal is to make everyone safe and fun. But you must know how to ride and understand how to stay on. Things can happen. You can fall off; you must be ready.

How long does it take to pick up the foundational skills necessary for horse riding?

So, there’s a couple of factors here. First of all, you need to take some riding lessons, depending on which country you are in, you want to make sure that you’re taking classes from a place that knows how to teach. Sometimes you’ll show up in a country, and they’ll put on a show. You don’t want to take lessons there. If you find stables where you can take riding classes, I would tell them your goal. Your goal is not to be a professional, but you need to walk, trot and canter safely on a trail and have fun that way. It will take a few months to get the foundation skills. But the more you ride, you’ll be able to pick it up quickly; and be able to stay on safely and not die.

It is very technical. A bicycle doesn’t have a brain, so you learn how to control it. That’s the first step. And for lots of riders, that’s hard. You get on the horse, and suddenly you realize the ground is a lot farther away than you thought it would be. The horse is moving, and there are so many moving parts. First, you need to learn how to control your body and what you’re doing. You need to know how to talk to your horse and say, let’s stop now, or let’s go, or turn and do all these essential things. There are multiple components. So, it is a sport, and you will feel the burn; you will feel muscles that you didn’t know you had. If you’re doing a long ride, like five hours in the saddle, you might want to get a little sheepskin cover for it, so your bum’s not sore. You can learn how to do it and be safe and walk, trot and canter.

Why do you enjoy horse riding so much?

Yeah, and that’s why I do what I do. There is a science, and many technical things go into it. Horses are amazing, majestic, noble animals. It is worth traveling and seeing countries on horseback. The locals treat you differently. The scenery is different. Just everything about the experience is different because it’s not just you hiking up the mountain by yourself. You have this partnership with an animal, and you guys are climbing this hill together or galloping across the desert together, and they talk to you. When you ride into an incredibly remote town, and you’re sitting on a horse, the locals are amazed. They shout and wave at you and invite you for tea or dinner. Everyone loves and respects horses. We discovered different countries and landscapes, and it was all from the back of a horse; it’s a great way to see a country.

Do you find it easy to find trips that align with your passions and goals?

Yeah, definitely. The terrain can change your ride and the type of horse you’re riding, for example, if it’s very mountainous, like Bhutan, you might not gallop as much because you’re climbing up to the mountains, but they’re like little mountain goats, some of the steep things that they’re going up and down. You’re just holding on to them. In other countries, like when I was working in Egypt, it’s all desert. Every morning we would take the horses on a loop around the pyramids; that was their exercise plan. The horses would be fresh and feeling good; they want to run, you want to run. It was so much fun. I would race many of the local Egyptians, and I would beat them; they’d find it hilarious for a woman to win. I own two horses now, and they travel with me on my adventures. My horses have now been to three or four countries. My husband didn’t know anything about horses; I taught him to ride. He was an engineer and astute, so he has a lot of inspiration. But he’s not good at sports at all. If I throw something at him, he couldn’t catch it. At first, I thought it wasn’t going to work. He loved it so much, and he loves to gallop. He has a horse now, so we had this crazy idea. We lived in England, and we always wanted to go to Ireland. We brought our two horses to Ireland, and we spent two months riding them; we didn’t have any plan. I bought these two cheap saddlebags from Amazon. My horses had never seen those before. I threw them on their back and saw how they reacted. They were both fine with it, so we’re going on this trip. We were knocking on stranger’s doors, asking for a place to stay every night, which was a bit stressful, but people are amicable.

Most of the time, we always found a place to stay; it was a lot of fun. It makes you feel alive; we got on our horses in the morning, we started walking, and in the evening, we stopped, pitched our tent, and we would do the same thing the next day. I remember everything was in slow motion; I could see everything. My brain could finally process the scenery; it was an exciting experience. We would ride about 30-35 kilometers in a day. We would look at this big hill or mountain and decide we’re riding over it and then down into the valley and, and next, the ocean. The perspective of distance takes on a whole new meaning.

Does it feel like a different world when you’re on horseback compared to hiking?

Yeah, how many details would I have missed? All those tiny ruins? Or those little buildings? How many of those would I’ve driven past and saw it for a second? Then it would have been gone from my memory forever. But now I see them, at three miles an hour, it’s ingrained in my memory. 

Tell us about your experience of the super brutal Mongol Derby?

The Mongo Derby, it’s a 1000-kilometer horse race in Mongolia on semi-wild Mongolian horses; if they want you off, they’re going to get you off. I finished in 10 days; it takes between seven to 10 days to complete. It’s like the Pony Express, in the USA, they used to gallop their horses to deliver the mail and every, 10 miles or so, there would be a fresh horse, and the boys would jump off, get on the new fresh horse and start galloping another, 10 or 20 miles. The Mongol Derby, a fresh horse, is waiting for you every 30 or maybe 40 kilometers. You have to choose which horse you’re going to take for the next leg.

Every day, you’re riding 150 kilometers or more. I think I was riding three horses every day, some days, maybe four. It’s a race; you’re going fast, and they are not fully trained. It would take three Mongolian men to put on the saddle. They’re incredibly excited, very ready to go. I would check my GPS to see which direction I need to go; then, I would jump on the horse. Before I could get my feet into the stirrups, the horse would take off at full speed. They don’t stop for 30-40 kilometers. They keep running. I think 48 riders started, but only 22 riders finished. Not many people finish, statistically. I was one of the ones that finished. I wasn’t really in it to win it. There was another rider from France. He was a showjumper, and his riding style was similar to mine. He was hilarious. On day three, I was miserable, so I decided to team up with this guy, and we’re going to conquer it together. We crossed the finish line together, and it was a lot of fun. Well, painful fun. So that’s the gist of the Derby.

These horses are outstanding and used for racing. I learned how to say in Mongolian and give me your fastest horse, please. The Mongolian men would size me up and talk about me. Once all of the men followed me into a tent. I didn’t speak a word of Mongolian, but I knew that they were talking about me. Luckily, there was a translator that happened to be at that station. I asked him, what are they talking about? He asked the head Mongolian honcho guy, what are you talking about? He said they had a special horse for me. All of the men take me out, and they bring me this horse. It was the most boring-looking horse I’ve ever seen in my life. It was small; it was brown, it didn’t even have any markings. It was just the brownest, boring horse ever. They saddle up this horse, and I go to get on, and it launches itself. It was like a plane taking off; it just launches itself. For the next 40k, this horse galloped, full speed, like the fastest horse I’ve ever experienced in my life. I had some other riders who tried to keep up with me; we left them so far behind that they had no chance. I was just gone. I remember I wanted to stop and check my GPS, but I couldn’t stop him. So, I looked at the biggest mountain I could find, and I pointed him in that direction. He galloped to the top of this mountain, finally slowing down just enough for me to check my GPS. I turned him around, and he galloped full speed down the mountain and kept going. That horse was crazy, but I loved it.

It was the most fun I’ve had, and I will forever remember that horse. When you pull up in the horse station, they have vets that check the horses to ensure they are healthy and okay. They check the horses’ pulse because if the pulse is down, that means they’re very fit, and I didn’t push him too hard. That was his special pony; I was thrilled that I got the special horse.

How do you control a wild horse?

Most people go to the Derby, trying to control the horses. Or they try and ride the horses like they’re westernized horses, like first world horses with first world problems. Those horses don’t care; they’re wild; if you start fussing with them, or messing with them, trying to do stuff, they’re going to buck you off and keep going. They don’t need you.

I remember at one point on that same horse, there were terrifying Mongolian steps where there are Marmot holes, and you can’t always see them. At that speed, if a horse puts its foot in a Marmot hole, the horse is going to flip, it’s going to crush you, you’re probably both going to die. I remember telling myself; this horse lives here. He knows what a Marmot hole looks like. I’m going to let this horse do what he knows how to do. I’m not going to tell him what I think he should do at all, and that’s what I did. I dropped the reins, and I just let him choose the way as long as he ran in the direction that I wanted him to go. I didn’t care, and I didn’t fuss with him. So, you must use your instincts, your common sense. In Mongolia, everything made sense to me. I used my intuition and my gut. If you try and read it like a map, if you’re pulling out your iPhone, like where’s Starbucks, you’re not going to make it. 

I remember I did get a horse; he was horrible to ride; it was awful with terrible horses. If you get a horse, which is very lazy, you can’t ride for 40 kilometers, kicking it and trying to make it go because you’re going to wear yourself out, the horse is going to win, or he’s going to buck you off. So it takes two and a half hours on a fast horse to get from one horse station to the next, on a slow horse with mountains and marshes, it took me seven hours; I just kind of accepted the fact that I was riding a donkey. You can’t build a huge bond with the horse, but seven hours is enough; that horse and I can understand each other and develop mutual respect. We have to coexist, and hopefully, we both make it to the horse station.

Do you view your horses as travel companions?

Yeah, they have opinions. They have personalities; every horse is different. You’ll never ride the same horse twice. We own two horses, but every day is different with them. We had no way of preparing the horses for semi-trucks traveling 80 miles an hour next to us on our trip to Ireland. Do you know what I mean? Now, that’s where you find out how much that horse trusts you. So, it’s an experience. They have a soul; they have a mind, a personality, they have a heartbeat, it’s not just you and your team. The horses know better than us. It’s better just to let the horse pick their path or choose their way. The exception is if you’re a trainer. I’ve worked with baby horses; these are interesting to ride because sometimes they make bad decisions.

Have you had any misadventures before and been injured? 

I’ve fallen off horses; that’s just inevitable. I have been to many hospitals in many countries that you probably don’t want to visit. That was, you know, something I had to get used to. I’ve never had something that bad that I needed a helicopter. If no one is there to help me, I find a way to overcome challenges. If something breaks, even in Ireland, we were trying to find a place to stay for the night, or we had a hurricane coming, we always managed to find a way. That’s what happens in travel; you always find a way. You meet somebody friendly, and they help you.

The worst fall I’ve had would have been in Cairo. It was a showjumping accident. My horse stopped at the jump. It was quite a big jump; it was 1.30 meters. My horse stopped just in front of it. It was a horse that had never stopped for me before, so I don’t know what happened. It happened so fast that I just flew into the jump, and my leg somehow swept the metal pole. There was a little wire poking out for some reason, which sliced my leg open. I was so high on adrenaline, I got back on the horse and went to jump again. My coach had been giving me a lesson, and he called me over, and I’m holding my leg off the saddle, and he looks at me, like, what are you doing? The grooms take my horse, and I go to the bathroom.

You see, I knew it was terrible before I saw it. But I was so kind of focused on my legs that I didn’t even realize I didn’t shut the door to the bathroom. I pulled my pants down and looked at my leg, and I hear my coach say, we must go to the hospital. The journey was fast and bumpy. I think I was 21 years old at the time. I have all these male doctors around me. I don’t think they’d ever seen something like that; he had to stitch me up; I had to get 32 stitches. They had to sew the muscle and the leg; it wasn’t good. The doctor said that I wouldn’t walk at all or ride for the next six months. It was not a fun situation. It never occurred to me to go home to America, I stayed in Egypt, and I continued to work. I’ve just moved on with my life.

What is your mindset or mentality when you go on risky adventures?

As a female traveler, there is a risk of safety. That’s just an unfortunate thing as women; we must deal with. Then there’s an aspect of taking risks, my courses or challenges, and problematic situations. I think my mindset and personality like challenges. I like the idea of doing things that other people aren’t doing. I think it might feel like, what am I thinking; this is so stupid; I’m in pain, this isn’t fun. But at the same time, something magical happens the more you do these kinds of experiences or challenges. You understand what you’re capable of, and you see how resilient you are. I don’t think it’s something special. I believe anyone can learn this.

I don’t look at myself like I’ve done something others can’t. I started the day I got on the plane to work in Egypt. That was the scariest moment for me because that was the day of the Egyptian revolution. My family called me saying, turn around, come back. If you go there, you’re going to get kidnapped or killed. I’m not saying everyone should do it. There are certain situations where you need to be smart, but I just had this inner voice inside me that said no, there are friendly people everywhere. I don’t care what religion, I don’t care what language, I don’t care what country you’re from, there will always be friendly people to help you, there’s always going to be a way to overcome whatever challenges you face. That’s the mentality I had. I’ve never been proven wrong. I’ve always had somebody friendly swoop in and save the day or invite me in or, whatever it is that I was facing, or I conquered that challenge on my own; you find out what kind of person you are. When you can do those kinds of challenges and think back to my life in America, the problems I used to have are minor; I almost cannot go home to the US anymore. Just because I find everyone else’s issues stupid, and I’m sure many of the listeners find this.

I remember I had one friend; I stopped talking to her because I would call her, I was excited about my adventures, and she would be talking about guy problems. I couldn’t cope with that anymore. Once you’ve started doing this and find out what you’re capable of, you almost can’t go back to what you were doing before. I’m at the point that I need something so wholly insane to top the last thing I did.

What would you say to people concerned about the negative side of traveling?

I think people are terrified of bad things. I lived in India for two years; no offense, but every other person was trying to scam me out of money. People trying to grab my boobs every day was a fight for me. Yes, there are many terrible things, but you know what I learned? I adapted, and I figured out how to deal with it. I figured out how to overcome it. I figured out the secret sauce of having fun there and being safe and checking all those boxes. Yes, it’s maybe not for everyone, and there are many obstacles, but it made me who I am. Now when I travel places, I can see the trouble because I think you need to take it and learn from it every day of your life. Also, remember to laugh at those challenges. It’s going to make the most exciting story later; someday, you could be on a podcast telling your stories.  

I think it helps empower you, especially as a woman. I lived in Egypt for two years; I do speak Arabic. I was in Florida walking around at nighttime. I’m walking, and suddenly, these five men start catcalling me; in Arabic, I knew what they’re saying. I stopped, spun on my heels, and they’re all giggling at each other because they think I don’t understand. I tell them in Arabic, watch yourself, don’t ever speak to a woman like that. I turned on my heels and walked away. They went dead quiet and kept their eyes to the floor. They were ashamed that they had done that. I felt so cool. I remember walking away from that, thinking I had probably just saved many women from getting catcalled by these boys. I’m glad that I could handle it and that it wasn’t some girl who couldn’t. I walked away from that feeling like a badass. 

Talk to us about female empowerment and how that fits in with your business?

Equestrian Event Dresses started as a Facebook group; it exploded. I found out that many women in western countries ride horses. Many women also really want to travel, and they want to travel on horseback; they all joined the community. We have a podcast; we have a YouTube show; we have an Amazon Prime; we have all kinds of things happening. It started because I was traveling to all these places, and at one point, I felt alone; I was always so low. I was always doing all these awesome things, and I just felt like there must be more than me; I can’t be the only one doing this. I remember I was sitting in Bhutan, and I was training all of those men and one of the young girls who was a couple of years younger than me came up to me; she was the daughter of the man of the house, we were staying, so she wasn’t involved in the horses at all. But she had been watching me every day coming back from work with these men and having all these stories, and she saw that I was kind of in charge. She came up to me shyly one day, and she said she didn’t know women could ride horses. She didn’t think women could work with horses. But now she knew; those words meant something to me because I noticed that even when I was traveling, I was the only woman there sometimes; I could convince one or two girls to ride with me. I did notice a shift in the men’s attitudes because suddenly it was possible. And the men would come to me, and they would ask me questions about horses or see what I’m doing, and they were curious. It meant something to me.

I wanted to share women’s stories, not my stories, but other women who are doing amazing things with horses in different countries. Some of them are locals doing amazing things with horses; we have a woman from India. She’s the only female dentist, like a horse dentist. We have women coming on our podcast sharing their stories. When I went to Greenland, I filmed a woman who co-owns the horse riding tours with her husband. She’s a super cool lady. I interviewed her a lot, and it’s just a lot of fun to travel to these places and connect with women and see things from their perspective.

I was in South America and Brazil; I got invited by a girl. She was the only girl who would participate in a 750-kilometer horse race, an endurance race for 15 days. She asked me to come along, and I interviewed her, and things are different when you’re a woman, like when you need to pee; where will you go? You are in an open field. I could share with the other girls an immediate sisterhood. It’s just interesting when you think about something like that, but it happens. The gauchos have no idea that this is a problem. It’s just a passion of mine, and I’ve been lucky enough to do a business out of it.

When I’m traveling, the men are essential to my safety. I’ll give an example; I did a car rally – this is how I met my husband; I met him in Azerbaijan at this car rally. I was the only woman to drive from England to Mongolia and back, solo. I had this situation happen, where my car engine exploded in Kyrgyzstan. The thing is, I had been traveling with this convoy of men and, they were from England, or Germany, they’re from different countries. All these men, British and German, left me there. They got in their cars and drove away, except for my husband, he followed me for a little bit, and then he also drove away.

I know I’m able to handle myself, but just from this perspective, I would love it if men would consider the gravity of that situation. I was a solo woman in a car with no working engine. I know how to handle it; it’s okay. But it’s not an ideal situation for a woman. I’m far from the nearest airport; it’s like a 12-hour bus ride. They all drove away, and they didn’t think anything of it because they don’t have to worry about stuff like that. It’s so important, and I try to help them be aware that they have a responsibility, even if they meet a backpacker, and hang out for a couple of days. You have this responsibility as a man, not necessarily taking care of us, but be aware. Just be mindful that we do have to deal with these things. That by itself makes a big difference for us. I’ve traveled with some men who have saved my life. Just because they were there, it does not just empower women; it’s both.  

How do you cope with your passion being your business? And how do you turn it into a viable business?

I think the one thing I did wrong when I started was I tried to do what everyone else is doing. Everyone’s blogging; I need to have a blog. Everyone’s YouTubing; I need to do it. Everyone has a podcast; I need to have one. Everyone’s on Instagram; I must be on Instagram. I tried to do everything, and to be honest, it just killed me, sucked the life out of me because I’m not good. I’m not an Instagrammer. I’m just not; I don’t care. I don’t want to play on it; it is not my jam.

I enjoy YouTube, so you must find the one thing you like for yourself. If you like podcasts, and that’s your jam, you can make it work because you love it. So, the most important thing is you must love it because if you don’t love it, you’re going to quit after a month or a year. If you’re podcasting and you love it, you’re going to keep podcasting and do your thing. Then someday, somebody will pay you, and things will happen. You must love it, don’t try, do everything, pick something you enjoy. There will be emails to deal with or technical things, but that’s all learnable skills. Set yourself like a schedule and be consistent. I’m going to the podcast Monday through Friday, from 8 am until 9 am. Pick a schedule, pick a day, make it a part of your daily habit. When I was in Greenland, I would ride anyway and turn on a GoPro camera.

I love YouTube; I like being on YouTube. I love watching YouTubers; I’m obsessed. My video doesn’t get 500 million views, but I like doing it. I’m already riding the horse; it’s no effort for me, so why not throw it on YouTube? If it makes money, great. If it doesn’t, whatever. That’s how it starts. As far as having a business and a passion, I would say you need to treat it like a business; you need to take it seriously. It would help if you were consistent. You need to learn the skills required to have a website or whatever basic things you need. Also, connect with other people if somebody sends an email, respond.

Reach out to people. If you don’t know how to do it, I promise you; there’s somebody that does. If you want to make money podcasting, reach out, send emails; worst-case scenario, they don’t reply to you, and then you harass someone once more or find someone else. Network with them, talk to them. The great thing about travel is, I feel like we are a tribe; there is a community, and I would never turn another traveler away. So many people havehelped me in my travels. If you messaged me asking for a place to stay on your travels, I would help you. I think a lot of travelers are like that.

I don’t think I ever really met a traveler that would turn you away. If they could genuinely help you, they would. Pursue one thing, and keep working at it until you can monetize it. Once you start making money with it and realize it’s possible, it gets easier to make more money. If you are consistent, people will start listening to you or reading your blog, or watching your videos, and they’ll start sharing it with their friends. It will grow, but you must stick with it. Don’t give up.

You don’t have to have all the answers right away. I wish when I first started, somebody told me I could make money on YouTube; I didn’t even know that was the thing. I was traveling around all these countries for so long. It never occurred to me to turn on a video camera when I’m galloping around the pyramids. But you can’t kick yourself for what you didn’t know, don’t punish yourself for it. If it doesn’t make money, don’t compare yourself to others because it will come. When you start making a video, let’s say you get ten views, and one of those viewers comments positively on your video; are you telling me that that comment is not worth it because it didn’t get a million views? If one person listens to my podcast, and it changes their life, then it’s worth it. Hopefully, that person will be kind enough to share it with their friends, and that’s how it happens. Just be true to yourself, share your stories, get the message out there. Please don’t be shy. Don’t avoid being on camera. You can learn how to do that stuff. If you like writing, be a blogger. You can learn how to do it, even if you don’t know how, so don’t worry about it.

How important is perseverance in content creation?

You might be quitting just before that one video you didn’t publish gets a million views. So that one blog could have been it, and because you didn’t do it, you missed out. You don’t want to do that; be consistent. Just like when we’re traveling, and we already know as travelers, I’m going to go to that country, and I’m going to have a fantastic time because I’m going to learn from it. We do that naturally with traveling, but for some reason, when it comes to business, we forget that it’s the same. It’s funny, one of my blogs from two years ago, I think I got a paycheck for two cents. I haven’t been making money with that blog for the past year. The blog that I published a year ago made me two cents, whoa! Celebrate those little wins.

We have a book series; it’s true stories, women who travel on horseback doing amazing things. We collaborated, we put it into a book, and one of the biggest mistakes I saw was somebody would send me a story or an idea for a story, then demand a ridiculous amount of money, and the reason that that’s a big mistake is that she missed out. We published the books, and the books are popular. We’ve had over 3000 downloads. Everyone published has their author bio, and they have a link to their blog. All these people who’ve been in my books get all kinds of free traffic and promotions; I have so many people messaging me, saying, I loved her story. I’m stalking her now on Instagram, or I’m buying her other book.

I think the worst thing you can do is not understanding value. When working with other people and other business owners, think about the return of investment on promoting yourself, just sharing your story and sharing your message. Then people are going to findyou. If you share a story, and it’s amazing, I’m going to follow you and stalk you. When I started traveling, I worked for free. I didn’t make any money initially or made such small money. It was a joke; I couldn’t even pay for food. It was so ridiculous. That’s how I started, but I don’t do that anymore. You must be open-minded to do stuff for free initially, be open-minded to reaching out to people, and say, I haven’t gone anywhere. Would you mind if I sent you a blog once a week, be creative, reach out, don’t just close yourself off, and say, I need $5,000 a month; I’m not going to do it for less.

How do you feel the internet helps the opportunities for this generation? 

Right now, we’re talking about digital nomadism. For ten years, I was working with horses in different countries. Sometimes I would be in that country for two weeks working at that stables, sometimes, six months or two years. It varied depending on the job. Sometimes people would fly me out; I’d work, and then I’d leave. It differed in all sorts of ways. That’s how I got to see those countries. I didn’t even have any jobs lined up in India. I saw Slumdog Millionaire and decided I’m going to work in India. But I could not find anything on Google about any single horse stables. But I was going anyway, so I booked a ticket; a one-way flight. I just showed up, and I started talking to people, and people wanted to help you. Jobs came from word of mouth; that’s how I got employment in India. I never went on the internet except to find that picture of Bhutan. Once people found out I was in India, I got a phone call every day from somebody wanting me to come and see their horses. You can work in these countries at a physical job or work in exchange for a place to live or for fruit; that’s how I started. There are so many opportunities; if you are skilled in anything. There are people in every country that need those skills; there are so many opportunities. Now, especially we are so connected, it’s way easier to find many of these opportunities; you can fly off without confirmation of a job.